Paul's report of Jesus' appearance.

[polonius]

1 Corinthians 15

" 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to [c]James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as [d]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

QUESTIONS:

1. Is this really an historical event or not?

2. Do you think it probable that those who witnessed this appearance told some of their acquaintances?

3. Did any who saw it or heard about it write to anyone about the experience?

4. If so where are such writings?5. Those who wrote the New Testament say nothing about it. Didn’t they know of believe Paul’s claim?

6. Do you think this story may be fictional?

[JehovahsWitness]

1 Corinthians 15

" 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to [c]James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as [d]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

QUESTIONS:

1. Is this really an historical event or not?

• Yes, I believe so.

2. Do you think it probable that those who witnessed this appearance told some of their acquaintances?

• I think it is most problable they did, Jesusb risen is central to the Christian message.

3. Did any who saw it or heard about it write to anyone about the experience?

• Possibly, it is unlikey the saw the need to wrote a book or a letter to a congregation but who knows if those that could write wrote the a relative about their experience. People lived in extended family groups so this would not be that likely but who knows ?

4. If so where are such writings?

• Probably long lost or destroyed by the passing of time.

5. Those who wrote the New Testament say nothing about it.

• PAUL wrote most of "the new Testament". Peter, who wrote two letters, endorsed Paul and the Apostle John, who it is is believed to have bedn thd writer of the gospel that bears his name , would have no need to reference Paul's statement as if his own eyewitness accounts needed endorsing.

Didn’t they know of believe Paul’s claim?

• Christians that had read Pauls letter did. If they were Christians they believed him since a Christ risen is central to the Christian message.

6. Do you think this story may be fictional?

• Absolutely not. I believe Paul's statement was proven fact and can see no reason to believe otherwise.

JW



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Go to other posts related to LIFE, DEATH and ...THE APOSTLE PAUL

[marco]

6. Do you think this story may be fictional?

Of course. One can stop short of saying Paul is a liar; he may have had some experience that caused him to be afraid and to change his view.

A good way of looking at the situation is to transfer it to a present day city and a present-day traveller who tells us that God knocked him down and shouted from the sky. Do we simply accept this?

For my part I believe Paul may have had some psychological experience and translated it into religious terms. Had he said he saw Aphrodite we would not believe him.

In today's world we would immediately dismiss the tale, so why do we entertain it when it is 2000 years old? Does truth improve with age?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]

1 Corinthians 15

" 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to [c]James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as [d]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

QUESTIONS:

1. Is this really an historical event or not?

Paul certainly thought so; as did Peter and James (the response that we lack Peter or James comments on this event is due to a category mistake: hyperskeptics appeal to courtroom-logic rather than historical methods).

I certainly do. All natural explanations lack plausibility, probability, and reek of ad hoc qualifications.

2. Do you think it probable that those who witnessed this appearance told some of their acquaintances?

It is probable that those who witnessed a cart run over a man told some of their acquaintances; so, yeah, I think it probable that they told others about this experience.

3. Did any who saw it or heard about it write to anyone about the experience?

We of course can't know; but based on what we know of that time period, I can say it is very improbable that any would communicate this experience by mail. If any honest thinker here would compare what must have been common but momentous experiences (summons to funerals, or court, or parties) with the documents available to us he or she will conclude that oral communication must have been the dominant form; and that even when it was not, the majority of documents were lost. Only historical ignorance would make a big point out of the lack of written documentation.

4. If so where are such writings?5. Those who wrote the New Testament say nothing about it. Didn’t they know of believe Paul’s claim?

Where are the writings of any small community of that era?

6. Do you think this story may be fictional?

Does anyone think that no one died, or there were no funerals, or weddings, or parties, or court summons, in Bethlehem between 1--33 AD? or that no one in Capernaum knew any current events--simply on the grounds we have no writings from them?


Question 7: Should the above responses not put to rest these kind of insinuations?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 3 by marco]

Of course. One can stop short of saying Paul is a liar; he may have had some experience that caused him to be afraid and to change his view.

That is a good historical assessment.

A good way of looking at the situation is to transfer it to a present day city and a present-day traveller who tells us that God knocked him down and shouted from the sky. Do we simply accept this?

That is sliding into bad historical reasoning. Historians of the past are CONSTANTLY warning moderners of dragging their assumptions and experiences into the past.

For my part I believe Paul may have had some psychological experience and translated it into religious terms. Had he said he saw Aphrodite we would not believe him.

religious terms

Technically, claiming a dead man came back to life is not a religious term; it is an empirical term.

And are you claiming he translated his experience into reporting that others had similar experiences? Now it sounds like you are accusing him of lying. Or are you arguing that, at the very least, Peter and James also had similar experiences, and that they all translated it into the claim that Jesus was raised from the dead?

Had he said he saw Aphrodite we would not believe him.

No one who has any historical training would make this comment; you have just made a parallel between what was known by all as a myth and what is known by all (except for a few hyperskeptics) as an historical figure.

In today's world we would immediately dismiss the tale, so why do we entertain it when it is 2000 years old? Does truth improve with age?

Based on actual historical methodology; which is terribly lacking on this forum.

[marco]

That is a good historical assessment.

I've no idea if you're qualified to make this statement, or the negative ones, but I think it's essential one understands what is being said before one judges it.

I was talking about Paul's Damascus event; you erroneously took it to be Paul's view on the Resurrection.

I used Aphrodite to reflect the zeitgeist of Paul's age where deities were honoured. Paul's claim to have spoken to God would have had more weight then than now.


Your cautionary note on not imposing on past peoples the ideas of modern times is fair enough, but inappropriate, since I didn't commit this error. You simply misunderstood the point being made.

Based on actual historical methodology; which is terribly lacking on this forum.

I wonder how casual posters would demonstrate "historical methodology". We all make errors, and some of us are lucky enough - it seems - to have tutors willing to find them.

I don't believe that historians consider the Resurrection an historical event. They do consider the crucifixion as such. Tales of a risen Lord are simply suggestions, like the suggestions that Mary Queen of Scots penned the letters that led to her execution. One should not confuse opinion with historical event. Go well.

[polonius]

Let's clear up one claim.

In Acts there are three varying reports that Paul was thrown from his horse and saw the risen Christ.

Nowhere in Paul's own writings is thre such a claim by Paul.

Luke is supposed to have written Acts. I guess he thought it was a good conversion story.

[brianbbs67]

Let's clear up one claim.

In Acts there are three varying reports that Paul was thrown from his horse and saw the risen Christ.

Nowhere in Paul's own writings is thre such a claim by Paul.

Luke is supposed to have written Acts. I guess he thought it was a good conversion story.

Luke-acts is what it was. Once a two volume set.

Is it posible that 500 dead arose? Sure anything is possible to declare otherwise is not possible.

As to not documenting such an event as the resurrection, I have seen many miraculous events by some terms. Very few have I written about. So, its all possible. As Christ said to Thomas(Didymus, I believe), You have seen and believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and believe. The weather is a good example of this. Many of us have heard of Tsunamis and Hurricanes and never seen them in person or written about them. They are real though.

So, its all possible and 2000 years later without empirical evidence can not be proven 100%. But, we can believe.

[marco]

Many of us have heard of Tsunamis and Hurricanes and never seen them in person or written about them. They are real though.

So, its all possible and 2000 years later without empirical evidence can not be proven 100%. But, we can believe.

The advice to believe without any proof is silly, especially in these days when scams are common. Perhaps Jesus had taken too much wine.

The Elder Pliny, who was interested in zoology, wrote a book on fabulous creatures that no one had seen. Of course we are meant to accept that three headed dogs roamed around somewhere as did unicorns. There is a vast difference between believing in very strong winds and destructive tidal waves and accepting resurrections. In Matthew 27 we learn that corpses cast aside the soil and walked to Jerusalem. I wonder if Jesus would have recommended believing this too.

[polonius]

Let's clear up one claim.

In Acts there are three varying reports that Paul was thrown from his horse and saw the risen Christ.

Nowhere in Paul's own writings is thre such a claim by Paul.

Luke is supposed to have written Acts. I guess he thought it was a good conversion story.

Luke-acts is what it was. Once a two volume set.

Is it posible that 500 dead arose? Sure anything is possible to declare otherwise is not possible.

As to not documenting such an event as the resurrection, I have seen many miraculous events by some terms. Very few have I written about. So, its all possible. As Christ said to Thomas(Didymus, I believe), You have seen and believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and believe. The weather is a good example of this. Many of us have heard of Tsunamis and Hurricanes and never seen them in person or written about them. They are real though.

So, its all possible and 2000 years later without empirical evidence can not be proven 100%. But, we can believe.

RESPONSE: No. According to Paul, a man can die but once.

QUESTION: Let's taka look at Luke-Acts.

In Luke we have Jesus ascending after his walk to Erasmus and dinner with the Apostles. In Act we have Jesus ascending 40 days after the Resurrection.

That this is a clear (holy?) contradiction thus can be proven. Assuming of course, that any of it actually happened.