Is there meaning in the Lord's Prayer?

[marco]

We are told that Jesus recommended a format of address to God. If we examine it carefully, what do we find?

The prayer is composed of direct commands:
Give us! Forgive us! Lead us not! Deliver us!

and commands in the subjunctive mood:


"Let your name be holy; let your kingdom come; let your will be done."


The direct commands mean very little: we get from life what life gives, regardless of whether we address God or not. It is highly unlikely that reciters of the prayer ever find themselves " delivered from evil". They prayed in war time and war continued.

The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry.

The same results would have been achieved had Jesus simply offered:

Dear God, I love you a lot. Thanks.

Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?

If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?

[JehovahsWitness]

MATTEW 6:9-13
You must pray, then, this way:

“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name+ be sanctified.+ 10 Let your Kingdom+ come. Let your will+ take place, as in heaven, also on earth.+ 11 Give us today our bread for this day;+ 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.+ 13 And do not bring us into temptation,+ but deliver* us from the wicked one.’ NWT

Is there meaning in the Lord's Prayer?

Yes I believe there is indeed a meaning to the words in "The Lords Prayer". I think most words carry meanings and those found specifically in Matthew 6:9-13, are not just words strung together that carry no meaning at all, but a series of sentences, each of which convey a specific thought or idea.



JW


FURTHER READING: Prayer—Will God Hear and Answer?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -god-hear/


RELATED POSTS

Did Jesus guarantee all prayers in his name, would be answered?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 077#809077

Did the early disciples know how to pray?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 441#885441

What Does the bible say about memorized/pre-written prayer by rote?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 335#960335

Go to other posts related to PRAYER, WORSHIP and ...REDEMPTION

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

The same results would have been achieved had Jesus simply offered: Dear God, I love you a lot. Thanks.

I'm not sure if one can scientifically measure the effect of prayer which would be necessary in order to prove the relative effects of each model and come to a consensus whether or not the same effects would be achieved.

That said, I do believe that, while expressing ones love for God is always a good and positive thing to do, the "model prayer" Jesus is reported to have provided has some specific requests which he must have seen as being worthy of note since he mentioned them individually, in response to a request as to "how to pray"

[JehovahsWitness]

Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?

Jesus is specifically recorded as introducing the prayer with the following warning:

MATTHEW 6:7-8

When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. So do not be like them...

Electronic Rosary Digital Voice Talking

HISTORY AND USE OF PRAYER BEADS

The prayer beads are used to recite chants, prayers, or devotions. Examples of popular prayer beads include the rosary in Catholicism and the dhikr or Misbah in Islam. ... The beads are normally fingered one at a time in an automatic manner to help the user keep track of the number of prayers said with the least amount of conscious effort. ...The exact origin of these universal prayer items is unknown but the earliest historical use of prayer beads can be traced back to Hindu prayers around 500BC in India.

SOURCE: https://viennaimports.com/blog/articles ... hout-world

MATTHEW 6:7-8

"When praying, do not say the same things over and over again ... do not be like them..." - JESUS CHRIST

JW



FURTHER Reading: Does God listen to all prayers?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... se-to-god/

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

HISTORY AND USE OF PRAYER BEADS

The prayer beads are used to recite chants, prayers, or devotions. Examples of popular prayer beads include the rosary in Catholicism and the dhikr or Misbah in Islam. ... The beads are normally fingered one at a time in an automatic manner to help the user keep track of the number of prayers said with the least amount of conscious effort. ...The exact origin of these universal prayer items is unknown but the earliest historical use of prayer beads can be traced back to Hindu prayers around 500BC in India.

SOURCE: https://viennaimports.com/blog/articles ... ghout-worl...
Quote:
MATTHEW 6:7-8

"When praying, do not say the same things over and over again ... do not be like them..." - JESUS CHRIST

You misrepresent and misunderstand. Jesus' words, "When praying, do not say the same things over and over again ... do not be like them..." were directed to those like the Pharisees who did just repeat prayers for show. Jesus was not saying he tires of people saying over and over again to Him that they love Him. Who could/would tire of such a thing? What mother would tell a child, "Stop repeating you love me -- that is just vain repetition!"? What lover would say, "Yes, I know you love me. You just told me that a few minutes ago. Saying it again is a waste of time!"?

Clearly, you have no idea what prayers like the Rosary are. Let me ask you how often is too often to recite the Lord's Prayer (Our Father) that we have been commanded to say? Is once a week too much? Once a day? Once an hour? Could it not be rattled off in a legalistic fashion just to check it off our list? Of course -- almost all good things can be abused, misunderstood, or used incorrectly. That doesn't make those things in and of themselves bad/wrong.

Tell you what, why don't you not pray the Rosary because you seem to think you couldn't do it with love and sincerity and leave it those of us who can. We'll pray for you while we're at it.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?

It can, as with anything, but doesn't have to.

If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?

Well, the Our Father was given to us to help us and is kind of cool if you think about it because it includes everything we ought to cover in prayer(talking to God). We praise Him, we thank Him, we ask Him for help, and we ask Him for forgiveness. The Lord's Prayer covers it all. It gets right to the point and can help us humans who can often get distracted. Or help those of us who might see prayer only as asking for things, etc.

Of course, we don't have to say it word for word, and we can certainly use free verse while talking to God, but if you think about it any free verse we might use encompasses some aspect of the Lord's Prayer (whether we are praising Him, requesting something, asking for forgiveness, etc)

I've seen entire books written just on the Lord's Prayer. I've known people who said they can take one line from the Lord's Prayer and meditate on that alone for hours. Anyway, seems like a perfect starting point for us to start that conversation with God.

I take it you don't agree?

[Elijah John]

We are told that Jesus recommended a format of address to God. If we examine it carefully, what do we find?

The prayer is composed of direct commands:
Give us! Forgive us! Lead us not! Deliver us!

and commands in the subjunctive mood:


"Let your name be holy; let your kingdom come; let your will be done."


The direct commands mean very little: we get from life what life gives, regardless of whether we address God or not. It is highly unlikely that reciters of the prayer ever find themselves " delivered from evil". They prayed in war time and war continued.

The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry.

The same results would have been achieved had Jesus simply offered:

Dear God, I love you a lot. Thanks.

Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?

If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?

Your alternative lacks the appeal to make us better people in the process, "forgive as we forgive".

The simple expression of love and gratitude that you suggest is certainly good, but doesn't go quite far enough. "Thy Kingdom come" is a petition for God to make this a better world, and "deliver us from evil" an appeal for protection. "Give us" is an expression of the need for God's provision, and an acknowledgment that everything we have, ultimately comes from God. That acknowledgment, if sincere, is a sign of humility. God honors humility.

[marco]

I've seen entire books written just on the Lord's Prayer. I've known people who said they can take one line from the Lord's Prayer and meditate on that alone for hours. Anyway, seems like a perfect starting point for us to start that conversation with God.

I take it you don't agree?

Yes - I don't agree. A conversation with God starts with silence and search and surrender.
In my teens I learned by heart the preface to a Russian chess book on the games of Paul Keres: Malcheek eez Narvi poyaveelsya kak meteor na shakmatnom gorizontye...." A boy from Narva appeared like a meteor on the chesss horizon. It was like a prayer of adoration. But if we want to move closer to praising God, rather than a grandmaster, we go no further than the poet Christopher Smart, whose religious fervour got him incarcerated in an asylum from where he wrote Jubilate Agno with the lines:

For I will consider my Cat Jeoffry.
For he is the servant of the Living God duly and daily serving him.
For at the first glance of the glory of God in the East he worships in his Way.
For this is done by wreathing his body seven times round with elegant quickness.
For then he leaps up to catch the musk, which is the blessing of God upon his prayer


Though as a boy I detested him, I think Manley Hopkins does justice to divine praises in his awfully hard sonnets with their sprung rhythm.

I think we admire the Pater Noster not for its content but for its alleged authorship. If it was composed by Jesus it must, ipso facto, be very good. And man as we know has the ability to stare at an unmade bed and declare it inspirational Art.

I associate the Our Father with penance, since I was invariably told to say this prayer regardless of the enormity of my childhood confessed crimes. I prefer it in Latin; the cadences give it more weight. And panem nostrum quotidianum sounds nicer than "our daily ration of bread". Perhaps in Aramaic it sounds mystically beautiful, as does the Koran when recited in Arabic (I am told).

For me, the prayer disappoints. Jesus could have done much better I think.

[marco]

When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. So do not be like them... Jesus

The intention to adore is surely all that matters, not the format. I think the message is to avoid hypocrisy, repeating stuff we don't mean.

I find it odd that Jesus, patient and forgiving, displayed such apparent animosity to other people.

[marco]

Your alternative lacks the appeal to make us better people in the process, "forgive as we forgive".

The simple expression of love and gratitude that you suggest is certainly good, but doesn't go quite far enough. "Thy Kingdom come" is a petition for God to make this a better world, and "deliver us from evil" an appeal for protection. "Give us" is an expression of the need for God's provision, and an acknowledgment that everything we have, ultimately comes from God. That acknowledgment, if sincere, is a sign of humility. God honors humility.

Millions in previous ages have prayed but has anything changed as a result? I supose we can attribute any progress to the success of prayers if we are so minded.

Thy Kingdom come is a plastic phrase that can be unrapped into any meaning we want. We ask for rain and rain comes when rain is due, or perhaps not at all, or indeed in tsunamis. I am sure the Aztec priests had prayers as powerful as the Lord's Prayer, and equally ineffective.