We are told that Jesus recommended a format of address to God. If we examine it carefully, what do we find?
The prayer is composed of direct commands:
Give us! Forgive us! Lead us not! Deliver us!
and commands in the subjunctive mood:
"Let your name be holy; let your kingdom come; let your will be done."
The direct commands mean very little: we get from life what life gives, regardless of whether we address God or not. It is highly unlikely that reciters of the prayer ever find themselves " delivered from evil". They prayed in war time and war continued.
The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry.
The same results would have been achieved had Jesus simply offered:
Dear God, I love you a lot. Thanks.
Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?
If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?
Is there meaning in the Lord's Prayer?
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Post #71
To wish the source of holiness be holy and hope "his kingdom comes" is an empty format of words.brianbbs67 wrote: just for reference, here is how the prayer model we were given was most probably before Rome and such
Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread; and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.
To ask for daily sustenance is possibly a practical request but might have been better put in the form: May those who are without daily bread be given the requirements to live. But I suppose God sends charity organisations. Who knows?
Asking for the same sort of forgiveness as we mete out is rather risky. It might be better if God exercised super-human forgiveness.
The desire to have no allurements would lead to a rather dull existence - perhaps hymn singing every hour.
As for Rome's interference - the prayer sounds better when sung in Latin. To me, anyway but maybe not to God.
Post #72
Prayer is a form of communicating with God so wouldn’t the meaning in prayer be intrinsically related to the one being prayed to ie God?
So whatever imagery the person praying to God has of God, would have an overriding influence as to how and in what manner the prayer is made.
A speech given before a large audience with highly important guests might be different than a talk given to a small family gathering. It would probably be crafted differently according to purpose.
A similar influence in the choice of words occurs in prayer. If someone doesn’t believe in God or they do but only as a distant aloof God then prayer would be quite different than from someone who prays for guidance, praise, confession and obedience from a more" relational" God.
So for some “The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry� would be true.
For a person who has faith and attaches life sustaining meaning to God and feels a connectedness then the appeal for God’s name to be holy would reflect a reality for them. It would be very appropriate.
How the rest of the Lord’s Prayer is evaluated will inevitably be greatly influenced by our own attitude towards God which is influenced greatly by our faith or lack thereof.
Jesus suggested the form of the Lord’s Prayer in response to the prayers of hypocrites who stood on the pavement in very public places to impress with their oratory and vain repetition.
The issue was not whether prayer was made in public, but whether prayer was motivated by vanity — the love of man’s praise.
A view of the Lord’s Prayer from a secular perspective and the view from a faith informed perspective must be quite different.
Prayer as a merely intellectual exercise and prayer which deals with matters of the heart must be different.
It then begs the question what purpose any discussion of “If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?� would achieve as the question doesn’t resolve which one, secular or faith based prayer, is in view.
So whatever imagery the person praying to God has of God, would have an overriding influence as to how and in what manner the prayer is made.
A speech given before a large audience with highly important guests might be different than a talk given to a small family gathering. It would probably be crafted differently according to purpose.
A similar influence in the choice of words occurs in prayer. If someone doesn’t believe in God or they do but only as a distant aloof God then prayer would be quite different than from someone who prays for guidance, praise, confession and obedience from a more" relational" God.
So for some “The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry� would be true.
For a person who has faith and attaches life sustaining meaning to God and feels a connectedness then the appeal for God’s name to be holy would reflect a reality for them. It would be very appropriate.
How the rest of the Lord’s Prayer is evaluated will inevitably be greatly influenced by our own attitude towards God which is influenced greatly by our faith or lack thereof.
Jesus suggested the form of the Lord’s Prayer in response to the prayers of hypocrites who stood on the pavement in very public places to impress with their oratory and vain repetition.
The issue was not whether prayer was made in public, but whether prayer was motivated by vanity — the love of man’s praise.
A view of the Lord’s Prayer from a secular perspective and the view from a faith informed perspective must be quite different.
Prayer as a merely intellectual exercise and prayer which deals with matters of the heart must be different.
It then begs the question what purpose any discussion of “If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?� would achieve as the question doesn’t resolve which one, secular or faith based prayer, is in view.
Post #73
[Replying to post 71 by Ocram]
I am not clear what "secular prayer" might be. Prayer is "a raising of the heart and mind to God," according to my old catechism. It is possible to pray emotionally, to pray with hope or to pray as a last resort. A little Ukrainian girl whose parents had just been murdered ran upstairs and knelt down to pray, asking God for help. Presumably she didn't frame her dialogue in terms of the authority of the God she was beseeching, nor did she remind him how well she forgave others. In any event the murderer admitted he heard her (though perhaps God didn't) and he smashed her skull. I was told by a fervent Christian that perhaps the girl prayed in the wrong manner. Maybe, indeed, in a secular way.
Perhaps the single word: "Help" has more prayerful merit than the poetic assemblage made by Jesus for our benefit and use.
I am not clear what "secular prayer" might be. Prayer is "a raising of the heart and mind to God," according to my old catechism. It is possible to pray emotionally, to pray with hope or to pray as a last resort. A little Ukrainian girl whose parents had just been murdered ran upstairs and knelt down to pray, asking God for help. Presumably she didn't frame her dialogue in terms of the authority of the God she was beseeching, nor did she remind him how well she forgave others. In any event the murderer admitted he heard her (though perhaps God didn't) and he smashed her skull. I was told by a fervent Christian that perhaps the girl prayed in the wrong manner. Maybe, indeed, in a secular way.
Perhaps the single word: "Help" has more prayerful merit than the poetic assemblage made by Jesus for our benefit and use.
Post #74
I was referring to the phrase "If we believe in God...."
Believing in God as an intellectual process (even the devils believe) but without life changing consequences and faith I would refer to that as secular and thus prayer said with that "narrow" view of God to be secular prayer. Even in the face of evidence to the contrary people of faith believe hold to the view that
Post #75
The phrase I used was “secular or faith based prayer�. So the inference is probably “secular based prayer� which is the type of prayer that is motivated purely by vanity — the love of man’s praise.
Jesus spoke about those who showed little or no emphasis on praying with faith or trust or dependence on God, hence the example of the Lord’s Prayer.
Faith based prayer is praying in humble dependence and shows that the person is genuinely convinced of Gods wisdom, love and power. They would pray in the “wholeness of character� and relate to God in the wholeness of his character.
