Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

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polonius
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Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.
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Post #21

Post by onewithhim »

brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes I agree there was no evidence of English in ancient Hebrew. There may be Hebrew in english.

But the real problem here is the unaddressing of the 12th century insertion of English vowels and pronunciation rules on to the YHVH. Can you not look beyond your own church, even when it is proven false in its Jehovah statements?
Can you please look at explanations that have been given here by myself and others? It is not Jehovah's Witnesses who have said that "Jehovah" should be the way God's name is pronounced. I showed you a dozen ways that "YHWH" can be pronounced.
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Post #22

Post by onewithhim »

brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 11 by onewithhim]

Well, if that is the case, I cede my protest. All the Jw's I have met in life and some here have said otherwise. The position of we don't know for sure is one I have also. Our heavenly Father actually predicted this in the OT. He said we would forget His name.
Yes, and it is sad. He definitely doesn't want us to forget his name. Exodus 3:15 states as much (if you look at a version that leaves his name in where it should be, like Young's Literal Translation or The Living Bible, or the American Standard Bible).
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Post #23

Post by onewithhim »

brianbbs67 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes I agree there was no evidence of English in ancient Hebrew. There may be Hebrew in english.

But the real problem here is the unaddressing of the 12th century insertion of English vowels and pronunciation rules on to the YHVH.

So what century were the English vowels for "God" and "Jesus" inserted and was it by a monk?

Again I would prefer you reply in the original Hebrew and not employ any vowels in your response if you would be so kind. I'm against vowels. If you must speak in the English language could you please for the sake of accuracy, use 1st Century English NOT 12th century English.


Thanks

JW
במ�ה ה -13 הופיע המונח "יהוה", כ�שר חוקרי� נוצריי� לקחו �ת עיצורי "יהוה" והוצי�ו �ותו בתנועות "�דוני", דבר שהבי� �ת הצליל "יהוה", בעל הכתיב הלטיני של "יהוה". השימוש המוקלט הר�שון ב�יות זה נעשה על ידי נזיר דומיניקני ספרדי, ריימונדוס מרטיני, בשנת 1270. ;)
Yes, there is God's name, right where you have the quotation marks. It is perfectly fine if we just state the Hebrew letters---"Yod-Heh-Waw-Heh." (It is my understanding that there is no "W" sound in Hebrew, so "Waw" is pronounced like "Vav.")

If we just say the letters it would be fine. As long as we use his name.
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

brianbbs67 wrote:

I have told you my point over and over. Here it is again. You don't know the Divine name sure enough to bet your soul on it.

I know the Divine Name and I would bet my entire life and that of my children on it. What I don't know precisely how it was originally PRONOUNCED but that for me is not a problem. I pronounce the Divine Name in ENGLISH because that is my language.


ROMANS 10:13,14 - NWT
For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.� However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!�

PSALMS 102:21 - ASV
That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem

EZEKIEL 38:28

I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah
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RELATED POSTS
Can anyone really know 100% for sure what God's name is?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 257#907257

Would it be inaccurate to say "God's TRUE/CORRECT/ EXACT name is JEHOVAH"? (see footnote)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 248#907248
Further reading
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... cis-b.html









brianbbs67 wrote: His name could be Bob as far as we know.
Yes, the name of your God (whoever he is), may well be Bob for all you know.... I concede on that point. The name of MY God however is certainly and without the shadow of a doubt, YHWH pronounced commonly in ENGLISH as Jehovah. There is no conceivable way that can be transliterated as Bob.


TIM or TOM : Do the numerious variations on how the Tetragrammaton can be rendered represent numerous different names?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 022#907022


MICAH 4:5
For all the peoples will walk every one in the name of his god; but we will walk in the name of Jehovah, our God for ever and ever. - Darby Bible Translation

1 CHRONICLES 29:13
“O our God, we thank you and praise your beautiful name �

PSALM 86:12
“I will glorify YOUR NAME to time indefinite.�



Go to other posts related to THE DIVINE NAME , PRONUNCIATION and ...NWT
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:37 am, edited 13 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 23 by JehovahsWitness]



PRONUNCIATION [Index]

Image

PRONUNCIATION
TRANSLITERATION

JEHOVAH
To learn more please go to other posts related to ...


THE DIVINE NAME , PRONUNCIATION and ...NWT
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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shnarkle
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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #26

Post by shnarkle »

polonius wrote: After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.
One of the best illustrations I've found is in polarity. Polarity is one, but consists of two poles. One pole cannot be greater than the other without annihilating polarity. The two poles have a relationship that is powerful regardless of whether we are talking about electric current or magnetic forces.

The equivalent articulation of the trinity is "one in being with the father". The other popular articulation is "God in three persons", but this is nonsense. The only person is Christ.

Paul also points out that God is the origin of all that exists while Christ is the means by which everything comes into existence. Things come into existence because existence is eternal. There is no referent for God other than the word which is why the introduction to John's gospel begins with 'in the beginning was the word" instead of "in the beginning was God".

Eternity is a characteristic of God, but God is not eternal because God is the origin of eternity, and as the origin, God cannot be the origin and exist at the same time. The origin of existence cannot exist without negating itself (paradoxically) into existence.

The God of the Old Testament provides a name which is usually translated as "I will be", and this potential is then realized as being, but becoming is not being.

What makes this particularly difficult to understand is that we're not dealing with anything because as John points out, "all things are created".
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PRONUNCIATION [Index]

Image

PRONUNCIATION
viewtopic.php?p=947077#p947077

TRANSLITERATION

JEHOVAH
To learn more please go to other posts related to ...


THE DIVINE NAME , PRONUNCIATION and ...NWT
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #28

Post by Ross »

Why insist on using the name Jehovah today for God when it is not present in the Greek scriptures, or even the LXX, other than attempting to manipulate people into believing that that YHWH is the Father only, and that the Christ is insignificant and not 'co-equal?'
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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #29

Post by Eloi »

Ross wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:28 pm Why insist on using the name Jehovah today for God when it is not present in the Greek scriptures, or even the LXX, other than attempting to manipulate people into believing that that YHWH is the Father only, and that the Christ is insignificant and not 'co-equal?'
Ask Jehovah why he insists on his people to use his personal name:

Mal. 3:16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”
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onewithhim
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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #30

Post by onewithhim »

Ross wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:28 pm Why insist on using the name Jehovah today for God when it is not present in the Greek scriptures, or even the LXX, other than attempting to manipulate people into believing that that YHWH is the Father only, and that the Christ is insignificant and not 'co-equal?'
No one ever said that Christ is "insignificant." Why do you insist that the only way he can be significant is to be God? Jesus is the Son of God, not God. He said in many ways that the Father is the only true God---the Father alone. (John 17:3; John 20:17) The Father has said that all of mankind has to accept Jesus' redemptive sacrifice in our behalf, the only way to gain everlasting life. That is certainly not picturing the Son as insignificant.
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