Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

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polonius
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Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #61

Post by Eloi »

Another fundamental difference between Jehovah and Jesus, his Son, is related to the kind of service they receive from people who consider them important.

There is a special service that is dedicated exclusively to whom one considers to be GOD, and it is related to prayers and sacrifices (in a general sense). That kind of service is what the worshipers of different gods offer at their altars and temples, and in a special way Jehovah received it in his own temple in Jerusalem from priests appointed according to God's own instructions.

That kind of service is defined by a very special Greek word that is NEVER used when referring to the service that Christians have to perform in relation to Jesus, but is used EXCLUSIVELY in what has to do with sacred services that only the Father of Jesus, who is GOD, can receive: λατρεύω, a sacred service that in the Greek Scriptures is only said to be oriented to the Father of Jesus.

In the Bible it is NEVER said that someone renders λατρεύω to Jesus Christ, but only to Jehovah, his Father ... neither on earth nor in heaven. That is because Jesus is not GOD. If Jesus were rendered that kind of service that is due only to God, his Father, that would be tantamount to idolatry. The English word idolatry contains that Greek root.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #62

Post by Eloi »

The following passage from Isaiah describes some attributes of Jehovah, the Most High God:

Is. 40:13 Who has taken the measurements of the spirit of Jehovah, And who can instruct him as his adviser? 14 With whom did he consult to gain understanding, Or who teaches him in the path of justice, Or teaches him knowledge, Or shows him the way of true understanding?

So:

1) the spirit of Jehovah is immeasurable; no one can measure it or manipulate it in any way, as if they could dispose of it at will.

2) the knowledge and understanding of Jehovah does not come from anyone; because He was Creator of all things; no one can teach Him anything.

How do these attributes of Jehovah reflect some fundamental differences from his Son Jesus? The following two biblical quotes on those same aspects but in relation to Jesus, reveal details respect those differences:

Acts 1:4 While he was meeting with them, he ordered them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me; 5 for John, indeed, baptized with water, but you will be baptized with holy spirit not many days after this.”

John 5:19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel.

A) Jesus is not the primary source of the holy spirit, and that is a very fundamental difference with his Father as seen on Is. 40:13,14.

B) Jesus is learning from Jehovah, his Father, he still does (Rev. 5:3-7) and always will do, according to his own words in John 5:19,20, and that is a very important difference ...

So, is Jesus equal to God in these other attributes? The answer is evident.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #63

Post by Eloi »

The Scripture says:

Phil. 2:9 (...) God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Does that mean that after Jesus was exalted by God, he is now equal to God?

Of course NOT. The same Scriptures say also:

1 Cor. 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.

Where that supposed idea of "co-equality" came from? Is not only a greater one who can elevate a lesser one?

Heb. 7:7 Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #64

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Eloi wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:24 am The Scripture says:

Phil. 2:9 (...) God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Does that mean that after Jesus was exalted by God, he is now equal to God?

Of course NOT. The same Scriptures say also:

1 Cor. 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.

Where that supposed idea of "co-equality" came from? Is not a greater one the only one who can elevate a lesser one?

Heb. 7:7 Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater.
Apparently, Satan/dragon, the pagan sun god, felt he was equal enough to war against God, and that is the god that the "Gentile church worships" by keeping his day, Sunday, as their holy day (day of rest) per the 7th head of the beast (Constantine's) decree as of 321 A.D., which leaves them with the "mark" of the "beast" (Revelation 13), which will have them drinking from the cup of God's anger (Revelation 14:10).

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #65

Post by Eloi »

There is a title for God that is being used by Jews for thousands of years: the Blessed One. In NT Greek the expresion is τοῦ εὐλογητοῦ (here in Genitive) like in Mark 14:61. The Greek word εὐλογητός is an adjective that describe a quality. Note that in this text Jesus is called ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ εὐλογητοῦ (the Son of the Blessed One) A basic definition of that adjective is pertaining to being worthy of praise or commendation—‘one to be praised.’ (LN 33.362).

Interestingly, when Elizabeth tells Mary that she and the fruitage of her womb are blessed in Luke 1:42, she does not use the same adjective that is dedicated to Jehovah in Mark 14:61. Notice the Greek word that is used in this case: εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξὶν καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου (Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb! ). That word used here is not the same adjective, but a verbal participle. The diference between this word and the other one, is that in this cases (other than God) the persons are treated as receivers of the blessing, not self-bearers of it. According to LN 33.470 that verb means to ask God to bestow divine favor on, with the implication that the verbal act itself constitutes a significant benefit—‘to bless, blessing.’

The adjective εὐλογητός is used in the NT about 8 times, and in ALL OF THEM is applied only to Jehovah, not to Jesus or anyone else ... because only Jehovah is being the Blessed One forever and ever.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #66

Post by Eloi »

If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”

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