Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

[polonius]

After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.

[onewithhim]

some erring scribes have taken out the Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

God has preserved the Bible for the benefit of all mankind against all odds. His inspired Word. But couldn't prevent dishonest scribes from removing his name in the NT; and needed you guys in the 1950's to put it back?

Yup.

I actually am amazed that you admit this so freely. Can you not see how absurd this thinking is? God needed the help of a Jehovah's Witness Translating Committee in the 1950's because he couldn't preserve the integrity of the Bible?
If I start a new thread on this subject, will you be prepared to discuss it with me, as this is somewhat off topic to this thread?

Simply put....Jehovah is preserving the integrity of the Bible by inspiring Jehovah's Witnesses to put back His name where it belongs. It may seem like a long time to you, but not necessarily to Jehovah. I will discuss it with you on another thread if you start one.

[onewithhim]

Eloi,
Please note Isiah 45:22-24

"Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'"

Then compare this with:

Philippians 2:10-11
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This demonstrates that Jesus is God, YHWH, whom you call Jehovah.

Acts 4:10-12 " in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz‧a‧rene′.... and there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”"

This is the reason why there is no YHWH in the Greek scriptures. Jesus is the name. The only name for Christians. There is no 'name' in this sense given to The Father. It is wrong to attribute the YHWH name in the Masoretic Text to The Father only. This is why your leaders were in such confusion regarding their desperation to add 'Jehovah' to their NT Bible. You miss the whole point about the Lords prayer too.

You miss the part in Philippians that says that every knee should bow to the glory of God the Father. Everything Jesus said and did was to the Father's glory, not his own. And remember what Jesus said at John 17:3.....he called the Father "the only true God." That leaves room for only the Father, Jehovah, to be God---with no one else.

You also missed the part of Acts 4 which says that there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved. That clearly states that no other name given among men, under heaven, will be what we need for salvation. The name of God is above that, he is in heaven. His name is not among men. Jehovah's name is superior to all, even Jesus.

[Ross]

Simply put....Jehovah is preserving the integrity of the Bible by inspiring Jehovah's Witnesses to put back His name where it belongs.

I am actually shocked this time.

[Ross]

I will discuss it with you on another thread if you start one.

I will. Thank you.

[Eloi]

Eloi,
Please note (...)
Then compare this with: (...)

I don't make those kinds of comparisons, because they don't lead to true conclussions. Compare Dan. 2:37 and 1 Tim. 6:15 and you will know.

There are clear statements in the Scriptures that we all must accept, like this:

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

Jesus is not saying that the Father is greater than himself because he is a man ... Jesus is talking about the Father when he will be gone and next to HIM; so, Jesus is talking about something absolute: the Father is and always will be greater than himself.

Jesus is the high priest of God. Don't you know that?

[Ross]

I am transferring this discussion onto a new thread.

[Eloi]

There are many biblical teachings that show that Jesus and Jehovah are not co-equals.

Jesus himself said:

John 14:28 (...) the Father is greater than I am

GREATER is not EQUAL ... basic maths.

[onewithhim]

There are many biblical teachings that show that Jesus and Jehovah are not co-equals.

Jesus himself said:

John 14:28 (...) the Father is greater than I am

GREATER is not EQUAL ... basic maths.

Yes, Jesus always gave his Father the glory for everything. He said many times that the Father GAVE him everything he had....glory, responsibility, power, etc., therefore eradicating the shallow idea that he was equal to God Almighty. (John 5:19, 30; John 8:28; John 12:49,50; Matthew 28:18)

[Eloi]

When Jesus was on earth, two of his disciples, blood brothers, made a very particular request to Jesus through their mother:

Matt. 20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. 21 He said to her: “What do you want?” She replied to him: “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.” 22 Jesus answered: “You do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.”

What did Jesus answer to their petition?

Matt. 20:23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

If Salome (mother of James and John) was the wife of Zebedee and sister of Mary (the mother of Jesus) as believed, this lady was Jesus' aunt and these two apostles were his cousins, so they must have thought that because of their kinship with Jesus, he would treat them favorably among all his disciples when they were in the kingdom. If Jesus had exactly the same authority as the Father, how is it possible that he said that he could not do this on his own?

Obviously, Jesus does not have the same authority than his Father and God.

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

[Eloi]

A fundamental difference between Jehovah God and Jesus Christ is found in these words of Jesus himself:

Acts 1:6 So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

Questioned by his disciples after his resurrection and a few minutes before being ascended into heaven, Jesus associates the moment of the establishment of the kingdom with a special knowledge; he calls it in this translation the knowledge of "the times or seasons". In other versions different phraseology is used ... but Jesus' words state that this knowledge is in the exclusive hands of his Father. In original Greek is:

ουχ υμων εστιν __ Not yours it is,
γνωναι χρονους η καιρους __ to know the times or seasons
ους ο πατηρ εθετο __ that the Father has placed
εν τη ιδια εξουσια __ in his own jurisdiction.

εξουσια is a word that in matters of government referred to the jurisdiction that was under a single person; it is a legal term indicating exclusive authority within the range. That is why on another occasion Jesus said something similar:

Matt. 24:36 Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

So the Scripture tells us that it is Jehovah who determines when the appropriate and opportune time arrives for everything that has to do with HIS purpose...it is not Jesus Christ.

After we accept that teaching of Jesus we can understand what this event that is described symbolically in Revelation implies:

Rev. 14:14 Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped.

That "someone like a son of man", the spiritual being pictured there wearing a crown is King Jesus Christ, ready to "reap" the earth (gather fruits). However, although he has his sickle in his hand, has not started that work when he has decided on his own, but has had to receive the announcement of an angel coming out of Jehovah's throne, and the latter tells him that the hour has come. It is evident that it is not Jesus Christ in heaven who decides the moments for the realization of God's purpose... this is exclusively God and Father of him.

Those who equate Jesus with God don't know anything they're talking about... no idea... they just imagine things.