Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

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polonius
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Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 9 by brianbbs67]

So would you agree the English word "GOD" was never in the original Hebrew scriptures (Hebrew was written without vowels) and that it was added sometime in the 15th century by some English monks? If so, what is your point apart from that the bible wasn't written in English?



JW

ps: You are of course free to reply in any language but I would prefer if you reply to me in Hebrew as it was the original language of the Holy Bible. Thanks.

“They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.�

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Post #12

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 9 by brianbbs67]

I guess you haven't noticed that JWs have never said that "Jehovah" is the exact correct pronunciation. We have always emphasized that "YHWH" is His name and should be pronounced however each particular language sees fit. There are dozens of ways that languages in the world pronounce "YHWH." In modern English we say "Jehovah." In 17th century English they said "Iehovah." Some of the other ways that His name is translated are these:

Gie-ho-va
Jehofa
Jehoova
Yave
Jehowa
Jihova
Yehova

and many more, according to the particular language. He doesn't care how we pronounce it, as long as we honor it and use it.

"And God saith again unto Moses, 'Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel. JEHOVAH, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is my name--[forever], and this my memorial, to generation [after] generation.'" (Exodus 3:15, Young's Literal Translation)

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #13

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]

"Are the members of the Trinity really co-equal?"

In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. After all, the name of Jesus has been elevated above the name of the Father, which is in this day and age, sadly (mostly) neglected.

The whole "no other name" thing. A casual reading of the book of Psalms reveals quite the opposite. It's the name of the LORD YHVH which is elevated and proclaimed, above any other. Not the name of Jesus.

And how many hymns have been composed to honor Jesus? More that those which honor the Father, or the Holy Spirit, for that matter. Many more.

And how many litanies to the name of the Father?

It is Jesus who has captured the hearts of the faithful, to the neglect of the Father, and not, as Paul says "to the glory of God the Father".

If one has usurped the other in practice and in the hearts of the faithful, that is not co-equality.

As Thomas Paine wrote,
"The notion of a Trinity of Gods has enfeebled the belief of one God. A multiplication of beliefs acts as a division of beliefs; and in proportion as anything is divided, it is weakened."
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #14

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes I agree there was no evidence of English in ancient Hebrew. There may be Hebrew in english.

But the real problem here is the unaddressing of the 12th century insertion of English vowels and pronunciation rules on to the YHVH. Can you not look beyond your own church, even when it is proven false in its Jehovah statements?

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Post #15

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 11 by onewithhim]

Well, if that is the case, I cede my protest. All the Jw's I have met in life and some here have said otherwise. The position of we don't know for sure is one I have also. Our heavenly Father actually predicted this in the OT. He said we would forget His name.

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes I agree there was no evidence of English in ancient Hebrew. There may be Hebrew in english.

But the real problem here is the unaddressing of the 12th century insertion of English vowels and pronunciation rules on to the YHVH.

So what century were the English vowels for "God" and "Jesus" inserted and was it by a monk?

Again I would prefer you reply in the original Hebrew and not employ any vowels in your response if you would be so kind. I'm against vowels. If you must speak in the English language could you please for the sake of accuracy, use 1st Century English NOT 12th century English.


Thanks

JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #17

Post by brianbbs67 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes I agree there was no evidence of English in ancient Hebrew. There may be Hebrew in english.

But the real problem here is the unaddressing of the 12th century insertion of English vowels and pronunciation rules on to the YHVH.

So what century were the English vowels for "God" and "Jesus" inserted and was it by a monk?

Again I would prefer you reply in the original Hebrew and not employ any vowels in your response if you would be so kind. I'm against vowels. If you must speak in the English language could you please for the sake of accuracy, use 1st Century English NOT 12th century English.


Thanks

JW
במ�ה ה -13 הופיע המונח "יהוה", כ�שר חוקרי� נוצריי� לקחו �ת עיצורי "יהוה" והוצי�ו �ותו בתנועות "�דוני", דבר שהבי� �ת הצליל "יהוה", בעל הכתיב הלטיני של "יהוה". השימוש המוקלט הר�שון ב�יות זה נעשה על ידי נזיר דומיניקני ספרדי, ריימונדוס מרטיני, בשנת 1270. ;)

Atlastitsdone
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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #18

Post by Atlastitsdone »

polonius wrote: After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.

They are NOT co-equal.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Gospel of Thomas 44:
Jesus said: He who blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and he who blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven.

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 16 by brianbbs67]

That doesn't answer my point, I am well aware of the history of the Divine name. Can you tell me apart from proving you are aware we speak English ( with vowels in it) what is your point? Do you have one? Do you feel inclined to share it?
  • Could it be that the bible should not be translated into English?
    Or that the English should have been invented before the 12th century?
    Or that monks shuold not have been allowed to translate because they have funny bald patches in their heads ?
    Or that all vowels are wicked?

What is your point? Do you know?


JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

brianbbs67
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Post #20

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

I have told you my point over and over. Here it is again. You don't know the Divine name sure enough to bet your soul on it. Please don't do that. Agree to say we both don't know, because we don't. That is it. Declaring God is in your back pocket because you address Him as Yehovah is silly really. His name could be Bob as far as we know.

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