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rikuoamero
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Post #1

Post by rikuoamero »

Right, so this is it. I'm done. I'm leaving the site. I've been here just shy of a full four years and to be honest, it often feels like I'm just banging my head against the wall, for all the good it does.
This isn't to say I haven't gotten something out of this site. I have made some wonderful online friends, and learned a lot. However, when it comes to Christians, it often does seem like they refuse to learn or apply themselves.

My view of Christianity, as of me leaving this site, is that it is a hateful evil cult. The rhetoric it spews about humans is just abominable. To be told that humanity is wicked, evil, sinful, and that all this is because a proto-ancestor ate a magic apple...? I have debated the morality of following Christianity's God, of their claims of their messiah, and been told that by & large, Christians would not prevent Jesus's torture and execution, they stand to gain from it.
Christianity inverts what is good and evil. It makes a virtue out of torture and executions, and a sin out of a respect for life. It commends authoritarianism and denigrates democracy.

A few parting shots as I leave
1213 - You're an idiot. I've seen that from you since day one. Your arguments are childish and simplistic. You apply no real logic that I've seen, and basically just repeat "The Bible is good, and that's enough for me to believe it" (or variations of that)

Still small, EarthScienceGuy - You are not scientists in my eye. No-one who cites Statement-of-Faith YEC sites is, because SoFs preculde science, because SoFs demand that their followers promote a certain answer no matter what is said, no matter what evidence is gathered or not gathered. Nothing you say on the topic of science has any weight, as you have destroyed your own credibilities.

Liamconnor - You're not a historian. All you can argue and all you seem capable of arguing is that with my (and other atheist's) standards, we should discard Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar. Well guess what? I call your bluff. I'm willing to do just that. If it turns out that I absolutely, positively HAVE to discard what I think I know about Alex or Julie, then I'll do it.

Dio9 - as seen from my latest round with you, you are uninformed about your own religion. Seriously, God doesn't send plagues? Try reading a Bible for once in your life.

Jagella - Great guy in my opinion, but you need to think through your arguments just a little bit better. You seemed to be uninformed as to the lack of a future tense in the Ancient Hebrew language. Don't give the Christians this excuse to dismiss what you say.

I don't mind if mods ban me for this post. I'm already on a Final Warning, and this ought to be enough to tip me over the edge. I'll just finish by saying that this is the best website I've ever seen in terms of debating religion. The mods are fair and even-handed, and I quite literally have never seen any partisan-ship in terms of moderation - no Christian mods covering for Christian abuses, or vice versa.
However, it's come time to leave. I've said my piece and at this point, I'm just repeating myself. Sayonnara and farewell.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #61

Post by Divine Insight »

Clownboat wrote: Just pretend for a moment that a fellow Christian has noticed this aspect of the theology and ask yourself how you would respond. Hopefully you would do better then pretending to be a victim? Such a thing would probably put off your fellow Christian.
Exactly. All that is required is to explain how it makes moral sense to condone having an innocent person brutally crucified on our behalf.

Apparently this is a problem with Christianity that even Christians cannot address. It's apparently so extremely difficult to address that their only response is to lash out at any person who asks the question.

It's clearly a very sensitive issue that cannot be resolved.
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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #62

Post by Clownboat »

Divine Insight wrote:
Clownboat wrote: Just pretend for a moment that a fellow Christian has noticed this aspect of the theology and ask yourself how you would respond. Hopefully you would do better then pretending to be a victim? Such a thing would probably put off your fellow Christian.
Exactly. All that is required is to explain how it makes moral sense to condone having an innocent person brutally crucified on our behalf.

Apparently this is a problem with Christianity that even Christians cannot address. It's apparently so extremely difficult to address that their only response is to lash out at any person who asks the question.

It's clearly a very sensitive issue that cannot be resolved.
That is why I tried the approach of 'pretend a fellow Christian is asking you'.
Hard to feel like a victim or like you are being attacked when a fellow member is asking the question.

Unfortunately, it seems Christians are unable or unwilling to address how their theology requires a person to condone the brutal murder of an innocent person.

Would anything be different if the theology required you to accept the brutal torture and murder of an innocent child? My guess is that anything is 'on the table' when it comes to getting to this heaven you have been told exists.

The fact that some people take issue with celebrating such a thing gives me hope for humanity. Now if only we could rid the world of the idea that there are infadels...
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #63

Post by John Human »

Clownboat wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
Clownboat wrote: Just pretend for a moment that a fellow Christian has noticed this aspect of the theology and ask yourself how you would respond. Hopefully you would do better then pretending to be a victim? Such a thing would probably put off your fellow Christian.
Exactly. All that is required is to explain how it makes moral sense to condone having an innocent person brutally crucified on our behalf.

Apparently this is a problem with Christianity that even Christians cannot address. It's apparently so extremely difficult to address that their only response is to lash out at any person who asks the question.

It's clearly a very sensitive issue that cannot be resolved.
That is why I tried the approach of 'pretend a fellow Christian is asking you'.
Hard to feel like a victim or like you are being attacked when a fellow member is asking the question.

Unfortunately, it seems Christians are unable or unwilling to address how their theology requires a person to condone the brutal murder of an innocent person.

Would anything be different if the theology required you to accept the brutal torture and murder of an innocent child? My guess is that anything is 'on the table' when it comes to getting to this heaven you have been told exists.
You ignore my rebuttal, and then you pretend that I didn't make one as you taunt me and compare Christians to abettors of bank robbery and murder. You make a mockery of this forum's pretense to "civil and respectful" debate.
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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #64

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 62 by John Human]
You ignore my rebuttal, and then you pretend that I didn't make one as you taunt me and compare Christians to abettors of bank robbery and murder. You make a mockery of this forum's pretense to "civil and respectful" debate.
Then show where I'm wrong John. I've got literal quotations from professed Christians that they stand by the crucifixion, would not prevent it if able, because they benefit from it.
Please show us how that is NOT at all like someone confessing to either directly aiding a bank robber/murderer or standing by and doing nothing while able to prevent it, because they benefit from it.
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #65

Post by Divine Insight »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 62 by John Human]
You ignore my rebuttal, and then you pretend that I didn't make one as you taunt me and compare Christians to abettors of bank robbery and murder. You make a mockery of this forum's pretense to "civil and respectful" debate.
Then show where I'm wrong John. I've got literal quotations from professed Christians that they stand by the crucifixion, would not prevent it if able, because they benefit from it.
Please show us how that is NOT at all like someone confessing to either directly aiding a bank robber/murderer or standing by and doing nothing while able to prevent it, because they benefit from it.
Exactly. Christians often say that they not only would not lift a finger to prevent the crucifixion of Christ, but that they totally support it on their behalf. If that's not condoning it for their own benefit I don't what would be.

Time is meaningless. God should have thought about this before I was born. I reject this entire scenario. It this is the best this God can do then I want no parts of this God. What kind of an ignorant God would assume that I would condone such an immoral act on my behalf?

If I can choose between Christ being crucified or my own death, I choose death. Ironically many Christians seem to be ok with this. They simply tell me this is not a problem, God will gladly give me my death. But how sick is that? A man who refuses to condone the brutal crucifixion of Christ gets death, while those who condone it on their behalf earn eternal life in paradise? That's supposed to be a moral religion? I don't think do. Good people are condemned while only those who care more about themselves than an innocent Christ are rewarded eternal life.

IMHO, that's an extremely vile religion to be sure.

Show me that I'm wrong. Don't try to hide behind false accusations that I'm somehow being uncivil here. That's absurd. I reject the crucifixion of Christ on my behalf. Therefore I'm not only not a Christian, but neither can I condone or support Christianity. Nothing uncivil about that.

Also, why should I have to show respect for people who are so willing to have an innocent person brutally crucified as their scapegoat? How do they deserve any respect from me? As far as I'm concerned they are the ones who are exhibiting immoral and uncivil behavior. I'm not going to join or support that uncivil mob. :-k
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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #66

Post by John Human »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 62 by John Human]
You ignore my rebuttal, and then you pretend that I didn't make one as you taunt me and compare Christians to abettors of bank robbery and murder. You make a mockery of this forum's pretense to "civil and respectful" debate.
Then show where I'm wrong John.
I already did, on post #57, but people have been ignoring my rebuttal.

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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #67

Post by rikuoamero »

John Human wrote:
rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 62 by John Human]
You ignore my rebuttal, and then you pretend that I didn't make one as you taunt me and compare Christians to abettors of bank robbery and murder. You make a mockery of this forum's pretense to "civil and respectful" debate.
Then show where I'm wrong John.
I already did, on post #57, but people have been ignoring my rebuttal.
This is the entirety of your response from post #57

Please don't pretend that I am pretending to be a victim. Please explain why you are pretending that I am doing so.

Jesus "Christ" (the "anointed one"), of a male-line descent from King David, was the anointed King of the Jews (and this is where the nickname "Christ" comes from, an oblique reference to his coronation anointing). Jesus was charged and found guilty of being the "King of the Jews," with the charge nailed to the cross above Jesus, flanked by two freedom fighters ("bandits") on their own crosses. In other words, in the eyes of the Roman occupation authorities, Jesus was the figurehead of a burning insurrection that had wrested Galilee from the control of Roman and subordinate Jewish authority. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a political execution in the midst of endemic guerrilla warfare in the heartland of Jesus's preaching activity. To pretend that Jesus was "innocent" seems to be beyond reason.

Beyond that, as portrayed in the Bible, Jesus was portrayed as accepting his fate and telling his apostles, who just didn't "get it." Jesus knew what he was about and its consequences; he acted with intention. Once again, his becoming the "Christ" ("King of the Jews") was a revolutionary act, leading naturally to a heavy-handed reprisal.

Nothing there speaks as to my charge regarding Christians and their acceptance of him being executed on their behalf, their acceptance of his torture and death so long as it benefits them.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #68

Post by Divine Insight »

rikuoamero wrote: Nothing there speaks as to my charge regarding Christians and their acceptance of him being executed on their behalf, their acceptance of his torture and death so long as it benefits them.
Exactly. No matter how Jesus might have been crucified that still wouldn't exonerate Christians from condoning this act on their behalf.
John Human wrote: The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a political execution in the midst of endemic guerrilla warfare in the heartland of Jesus's preaching activity. To pretend that Jesus was "innocent" seems to be beyond reason.
What? So you are claiming that Jesus was indeed guilty as charged? And that's supposed to make things ok? Jesus was guilty, therefore there's no immorality in accepting a crucified guilty Jesus to pay for our sins? :-k

This doesn't seem like a very good rebuttal to me.

Besides, the Gospels themselves have Pontius Pilate exonerating Jesus of all charges. Pilate washes his hands of the whole affair. It was the Jewish Chief Priests who called for the crucifixion of Jesus and Pilate said to them, "Ye see to it".

That's the Gospel story. So according to the Gospels it wasn't the Roman authorities that crucified Jesus anyway. Sure, there were a handful of Roman soldiers involved but those soldiers were assigned to do the bidding of the Jewish Chief Priests only because the Jews were under Roman occupation.

So it wasn't the Romans who killed Jesus anyway, it was the Jewish Priests. At least according to the Christian Gospels. Pilate exonerated Jesus of all charges and washed his hands of the entire affair.

Besides, why should it matter anyway? Christians are still required to condone the crucifixion of Jesus to pay for their own salvation. It shouldn't matter who killed Jesus. Christians are still condoning the act on their behalf. And also claiming that if they could go back in history and prevent the crucifixion of Jesus they wouldn't do it. Because in doing so they would be condemning themselves to death.

So apparently if a Christian has to chose between the death of Jesus or the death of themselves they chose to have Jesus crucified so that they can live. This is the crux of the religion. If you refuse to accept the crucifixion of Jesus to pay for your sins you are rejected by Christianity and condemned to death. They won't even allow you to make that choice without condemning you. So to even be a Christian you must condone having Jesus crucified on your behalf. There is no other option in Christianity.
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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #69

Post by Clownboat »

John Human wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
Clownboat wrote: Just pretend for a moment that a fellow Christian has noticed this aspect of the theology and ask yourself how you would respond. Hopefully you would do better then pretending to be a victim? Such a thing would probably put off your fellow Christian.
Exactly. All that is required is to explain how it makes moral sense to condone having an innocent person brutally crucified on our behalf.

Apparently this is a problem with Christianity that even Christians cannot address. It's apparently so extremely difficult to address that their only response is to lash out at any person who asks the question.

It's clearly a very sensitive issue that cannot be resolved.
That is why I tried the approach of 'pretend a fellow Christian is asking you'.
Hard to feel like a victim or like you are being attacked when a fellow member is asking the question.

Unfortunately, it seems Christians are unable or unwilling to address how their theology requires a person to condone the brutal murder of an innocent person.

Would anything be different if the theology required you to accept the brutal torture and murder of an innocent child? My guess is that anything is 'on the table' when it comes to getting to this heaven you have been told exists.
You ignore my rebuttal, and then you pretend that I didn't make one as you taunt me and compare Christians to abettors of bank robbery and murder. You make a mockery of this forum's pretense to "civil and respectful" debate.
You continue to play the victim card even now when I have stopped responding to you!

My post was in response to Divine Insight, so why on earth would I address some rebuttal of yours when I'm not responding to you?

Come on man!
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Christians and atheists don't get Christianity?

Post #70

Post by John Human »

rikuoamero wrote:
John Human wrote:
rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 62 by John Human]
You ignore my rebuttal, and then you pretend that I didn't make one as you taunt me and compare Christians to abettors of bank robbery and murder. You make a mockery of this forum's pretense to "civil and respectful" debate.
Then show where I'm wrong John.
I already did, on post #57, but people have been ignoring my rebuttal.
This is the entirety of your response from post #57

Please don't pretend that I am pretending to be a victim. Please explain why you are pretending that I am doing so.

Jesus "Christ" (the "anointed one"), of a male-line descent from King David, was the anointed King of the Jews (and this is where the nickname "Christ" comes from, an oblique reference to his coronation anointing). Jesus was charged and found guilty of being the "King of the Jews," with the charge nailed to the cross above Jesus, flanked by two freedom fighters ("bandits") on their own crosses. In other words, in the eyes of the Roman occupation authorities, Jesus was the figurehead of a burning insurrection that had wrested Galilee from the control of Roman and subordinate Jewish authority. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a political execution in the midst of endemic guerrilla warfare in the heartland of Jesus's preaching activity. To pretend that Jesus was "innocent" seems to be beyond reason.

Beyond that, as portrayed in the Bible, Jesus was portrayed as accepting his fate and telling his apostles, who just didn't "get it." Jesus knew what he was about and its consequences; he acted with intention. Once again, his becoming the "Christ" ("King of the Jews") was a revolutionary act, leading naturally to a heavy-handed reprisal.


Nothing there speaks as to my charge regarding Christians and their acceptance of him being executed on their behalf, their acceptance of his torture and death so long as it benefits them.
My basic point, which I didn't explicitly state on that post, was that your whole argument is viciously absurd.

Jesus, a recognized male-line descendant of the House of David, rode into Jerusalem on an ads, publicly identifying with a prophecy about the Messiah (who was supposed to restore the Kingdom of Israel), to the acclaim of a joyous crowd. Insurrection was in the air.

Then Jesus was anointed, becoming the "Christ" (the anointed Messiah). As recorded in the Bible, Jesus clearly knew what he was doing, and he was clear about the consequences. He knowingly and deliberately and publicly challenged the legitimacy of the existing regime, and the predictable result was a public execution with the crime "King of the Jews" nailed to the cross above his crown of thorns.

Christians are taught to believe that Jesus Christ's willing sacrifice serves as an expiation for the sins of those who believe in Him. And you condemn and vilify this, to the point of bringing up a comparison with Naziism.

You said that you were leaving. Be gone.
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-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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