Does a mythical Jesus make a difference?

[marco]

Many claims are made for Christ, not all accepted by all Christians. He was born in Bethlehem in a stable and his birth led to the massacre of children. At his execution it is alleged Jews, as a whole, called down a curse on their descendants, and this has made Jews pariahs through history. Again, not a great legacy from Christ. So he attracts some censure.

But many think he offered good advice which, when followed, leads to a better society.


If Christ were no more than an enthusiastic preacher whom many follow in the belief he's full of wise words, does it matter that he's based on fiction? If he never rose from the dead and made no miracles, yet millions behave well because of him, does it matter he is a myth?

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Tcg]

You are using the myth itself in an attempt to support the myth. You need something external to the myth to support it. Given your reliance on the myth itself to support the myth, it appears you've nothing external to offer.

No, I am using the individuals responses and changed lives as examples of the validity of the claim that Jesus rose from the dead. They report seeing him and they made the resurrection the central theme of the their message. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. And in fact they did lose everything.


Quote:


If Jesus was not raised from the dead then the disciples would have had nothing to base their belief in.

This says nothing more than if the disciples were wrong, they were wrong. But, you are right, if they were wrong, they were indeed wrong.

I will take this garbled mess as an indication that you have no rebuttal.

[marco]

On what research are you claiming that Jesus is a myth? Unless someone is a historical relativist there are really no serious scholars that would say that Jesus was a myth. Dr. Gary Habermas has more than proved that.

I'm not suggesting that the character Jesus did not exist; I believe that a mythology grew around him, according the man the power to work miracles. If this makes people behave, then the question is whether a mythological Jesus makes any difference.

Now if you are trying to say that Jesus was not raised from the dead. Then you have a problem with especially Paul and but also the rest of the disciples on why they would die for a myth.

Paul didn't see Jesus, He formed a theology based on his own ideas. It is supposed the apostles died for something; most martyrs do. When a man dies for something he believes, it does not mean that what he believes is true. We have whole sects agreeing to commit suicide. I don't for a moment believe Jesus rose from the dead.

The resurrection is central to the Christian gospel. If Jesus was not raised from the dead then the disciples would have had nothing to base their belief in.

The motivation of simple people is not proof that what they believed was true. Other ancient people willingly sacrificed themselves for the gods they accepted. Why not? Jesus may have been astute enough to select simple people as his followers - maybe humble fishermen - and if they were willing to leave home and family, that tells us what we need to know. We don't need miracles. I am not comparing Jesus with Hitler but that dictator got a whole nation to stand behind him and die for him. Is this so strange?

[Peds nurse]

Hello people! (whom I have missed more than you can possibly imagine)

There are some pretty lovely people in this world now, and in the past. We learn from the words of Gandhi, Confucius, and John Locke, who were by their own right, great philosophers. Words can change us, and direct us to better living. There is little doubt that Jesus was a proponent of loving each other. However, living a kind and generous life does not instill hope in people. When a child is dying, generosity might ease the sting, but it does not instill hope in the hearts of the parents. Even the Philosophers who were wise, could not instill such hope in the lives of people. This is what Jesus offers...hope. There is hope that this life is not all their is and that we were made for more than living in the here and now.

Don't get me wrong, it is good to love each other and to be kind and generous. Those things will make a better life for us here, but apart from Jesus, they will not do much for eternal significance.

[William]

[Replying to post 23 by Peds nurse]

Don't get me wrong, it is good to love each other and to be kind and generous. Those things will make a better life for us here, but apart from Jesus, they will not do much for eternal significance.

There will be those who did not know of me, yet lived their lives as I would have my followers do. There will be those who made pretense out of following me, yet lived lives which proved otherwise.

To the former I say "Welcome" and to the latter I say, "Go away."

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 24 by William]

Hey William! I hope this finds you well!

Are you quoting scripture?

[William]

[Replying to post 25 by Peds nurse]

Hey William! I hope this finds you well!

Hi Peds! Thanks!

Are you quoting scripture?

Nope. I am paraphrasing a script which came to mind due to your post.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 25 by Peds nurse]

Hey William! I hope this finds you well!

Hi Peds! Thanks!

Are you quoting scripture?

Nope. I am paraphrasing a script which came to mind due to your post.

I see....well, I don't disagree with your post...so that is a pretty wonderfu thing!

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 22 by marco]

Paul didn't see Jesus, He formed a theology based on his own ideas. It is supposed the apostles died for something; most martyrs do. When a man dies for something he believes, it does not mean that what he believes is true. We have whole sects agreeing to commit suicide. I don't for a moment believe Jesus rose from the dead.

1st. Paul did see Jesus. He actually saw Jesus twice. Once on the Damascus road when he was converted and the other time in Arabia. It was this second time in Arabia that the Lord Jesus gave instructed Paul.

Gal. 1:11-12

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

The Greek word that is translated revelation here is "apokalypsis". Which means instruction in things that were before unknown.

Now regardless of whether you believe that or not really does not matter because before Paul went out and started his missionary journeys he met with the Peter and James "Jesus' brother to and compared the message he was going to preach with the one that they received from Jesus and it was the same.

2nd. Living with the same of those around you when you believe something that they totally disagree with is much worse than dying. In fact this is how cults get people to do things like committing suicide and staying in the faith.

The fear of being ostracized keep individuals in the Muslim faith and many other cults. That is what the disciples faced. They did not benefit from following Jesus after his death. They suffered. They suffered relationally, they suffered materially, and in their status, especially Paul.

Especially after Jesus died. Why would they still follow him? Take for example Jim Jones and David Karish after they died there following did not grow it died. Because they were dead.

Why would especially Paul who lost everything to follow Jesus follow Jesus once He died. Men will follow the living not the dead. Jesus said He was God the disciples taught that He was God. Why would they follow someone who claimed to be God and yet died? Unless Jesus rose from the dead like He said that He would.

The motivation of simple people is not proof that what they believed was true. Other ancient people willingly sacrificed themselves for the gods they accepted. Why not? Jesus may have been astute enough to select simple people as his followers - maybe humble fishermen - and if they were willing to leave home and family, that tells us what we need to know. We don't need miracles. I am not comparing Jesus with Hitler but that dictator got a whole nation to stand behind him and die for him. Is this so strange?

Jesus did not just attract simple people. He attracted some of the best minds in Israel who also had everything to lose if they believed that Jesus was God and that He was raised from the dead. Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, Paul and other Pharisees, these were the leading minds in Israel who knew Judaism inside and out. They knew the consequences of following Jesus and yet they followed. Why, because Jesus was raised from the dead.

Thee is no other logical answer.

[dio9]

Many claims are made for Christ, not all accepted by all Christians. He was born in Bethlehem in a stable and his birth led to the massacre of children. At his execution it is alleged Jews, as a whole, called down a curse on their descendants, and this has made Jews pariahs through history. Again, not a great legacy from Christ. So he attracts some censure.

But many think he offered good advice which, when followed, leads to a better society.


If Christ were no more than an enthusiastic preacher whom many follow in the belief he's full of wise words, does it matter that he's based on fiction? If he never rose from the dead and made no miracles, yet millions behave well because of him, does it matter he is a myth?

even I firmly believe Jesus was a historic person , it doesn't matter, where ever the teaching of Jesus came from it is true and good. Universal truth taught by founders of all religions.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to dio9]

even I firmly believe Jesus was a historic person , it doesn't matter, where ever the teaching of Jesus came from it is true and good. Universal truth taught by founders of all religions.

Jesus taught that He was God and believing that He died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins was the only way to heaven. All other roads lead to hell and damnation. That is what Jesus taught. That message is not taught by any other religion except Christianity.

Either Jesus was crazy and no one should believe His teaching. Or He was God and He is the only way to heaven. There are those two choices only.

Paul puts it like this 1 Cor. 15:16-19

16 And if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins. 18 In that case, all who have died believing in Christ are lost! 19 And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world.