This question comes from a reading of Jeremiah 31 , specifically verse 34 that says
‘They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,�
I was always taught that this was speaking of the new covenant especially the quote I will write my laws on their heart� but this all sounds to me a lot like the millennial kingdom in that No one has to even be taught any religion, and everyone is just born believes and knows. What do you think?
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Post #162
PinSeeker wrote:Two things are very clear to me.Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 154 by Checkpoint]
Nope. It's very clear. As crystal, really. And it's really much more meaningful to see from Scripture what actually happens -- from concrete examples -- rather than just to hear the words.Checkpoint wrote:
That is, at death we continue living as disembodied spirits until the resurrection.
Correct.
Checkpoint wrote:
If so, can you please show me where that is found clearly stated in scripture.
You answered:
I see.As is the case with many things in Scripture, you have to put several things in Scripture side by side and understand them together so that you can then see the whole picture and deduce the answer. This is straight from the Westminster Confession of Faith:
What I see by your reply is that you can't confirm your claim in the way requested because...
In other words, it is nowhere "clearly stated in scripture" that "at death we continue living as disembodied spirits".
Seems to me that if the whole picture becomes out of focus we see it in a different way than it actually is, and that markedly affects the veracity of what we deduce from it.
You know, Simon and Garfunkel were right. Too many times, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest ("The Boxer," 1968). Such is seemingly the case here. At any rate, I respect your opinion. Grace and peace to you.
The first is you have an inability to show me even one scripture that explicitly says that our spirit or breath continues to live after death in a disembodied state.
The reason you can't is there isn't even one such verse, which is because it contradicts the meanings of both breath and death.
The second is you don't or can't "see from scripture what actually happens". And/or doesn't happen.
With respect, it is as "The Boxer" so aptly puts it, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest".
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Post #163
To the first of the two things that are very clear to you: One shouldn't expect to see "even one scripture" that explicitly tells us what will happen to us, because the Bible is not about us. From beginning to end, it's about Jesus and God's great salvation.Checkpoint wrote: Two things are very clear to me.
The first is you have an inability to show me even one scripture that explicitly says that our spirit or breath continues to live after death in a disembodied state.
The reason you can't is there isn't even one such verse, which is because it contradicts the meanings of both breath and death.
The second is you don't or can't "see from scripture what actually happens". And/or doesn't happen.
With respect, it is as "The Boxer" so aptly puts it, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest".
To the second: Oh, but you can. You absolutely can. But you're welcome to your opinion, and I respect it (and you).
Again, grace and peace to you.
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Post #164
myth-one.com wrote:
Clearly wrong!PinSeeker wrote:His immaterial spirit. And for Adam, when he received it, it was as yet unfallen.Checkpoint wrote: What do you understand by "the breath of life"?
It leaves his physical body and is either united with Jesus... or, well, not. Either way, it awaits the Judgment, at which time it is reunited with the physical body. Body and spirit together then either inherit the Kingdom with Jesus... or, well, not, in which case complete separation from the Lord results.Checkpoint wrote: And what happens to it at death?
I think I've been pretty clear on this, even before now.
I agree; they do.myth-one.com wrote: All animals have the same "breath of life."
Disagree with this. Oxygen is only a part of what the breath of life is; and a small one at that, really.myth-one.com wrote: It's air -- more specifically the oxygen in the air!
Well, do you believe, myth-one, that there will be no animals in glory? The very fact they were created before Adam's Fall tells us -- or should, anyway -- that's not true; all of creation, including animals, was created "very good." So, in answer to your question, yes, I do. Obviously, you do not, and I respectfully disagree.myth-one.com wrote: Do you believe all animals have immortal souls as all animals have the breath of life?
Oh, but they do. All men -- people -- do. The difference is, believers have an Advocate, while unbelievers defend themselves. See Brian's post (59) on the previous page. And Jesus shows us this clearly in Matthew 25.myth-one.com wrote: Also, Christians do not face the judgment.
Agree...myth-one.com wrote: Man became a (one) living being.
Disagree...myth-one.com wrote: Not a spiritual being living within a physical being.
Agree...myth-one.com wrote: All creatures described in the original scriptures as a "nephesh", including man and the other animals, are mortal physical beings, because they all breathe.
Sure, he ceases to live on this earth. Agree. But he does not cease to exist. How many times have we been back and forth on this now? We disagree on this, and that's well established; I suggest we stop.myth-one.com wrote: When they stop breathing, they die:Job 14:10 wrote:But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.
Grace and peace to you.
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Post #165
myth-one.com wrote:There is an actual story line or plot in the Bible.
Wrong.PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely. It's about redemption.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and placed a host of angels on the earth as caretakers. These were spiritual beings who understood the mysteries of the universe. Some of these spiritual caretakers, led by Satan, rebelled against God's authority. As a result the earth came to be without form, void, and dark.
At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He recreated the earth and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement caretakers for those who rebelled.
Since the original angels who understood the mysteries of the universe rebelled, why give the new caretakers this knowledge initially. Let them learn it the hard way through on the job training, the old school of hard knocks. That way they will appreciate the gift of eternal life more when it is given.
The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.
We are here to learn that we should fear God and keep His commandments
We learn this lesson by trying our way and failing. The answers about the best way to live are sealed in the scriptures. We learn them through trial and error and hard knocks if at all.Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
The Bible is sealed until after the six-thousand-year training and weeding out period.
The harder you have to work for something the more you appreciate it.
So the Bible story line is about how man can gain everlasting life and thus equality with the original angels.
Under the Old Testament we could gain everlasting life by obeying all of God's commandments.
Under the New Testament, we must believe in Jesus as our Savior to gain everlasting life.
Those of us who gain everlasting life will replace those angels who failed in their earthly duties.
All other humans simply perish.
The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way.
Having learned this lesson, these new spirits being produced for the Kingdom of God, should be less inclined to revolt.
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Post #166
Thanks for your... um... thoughts, myth-one. At least we agree that belief in Jesus is necessary. Grace and peace to you.myth-one.com wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:There is an actual story line or plot in the Bible.Wrong.PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely. It's about redemption.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and placed a host of angels on the earth as caretakers. These were spiritual beings who understood the mysteries of the universe. Some of these spiritual caretakers, led by Satan, rebelled against God's authority. As a result the earth came to be without form, void, and dark.
At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He recreated the earth and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement caretakers for those who rebelled.
Since the original angels who understood the mysteries of the universe rebelled, why give the new caretakers this knowledge initially. Let them learn it the hard way through on the job training, the old school of hard knocks. That way they will appreciate the gift of eternal life more when it is given.
The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.
We are here to learn that we should fear God and keep His commandments
We learn this lesson by trying our way and failing. The answers about the best way to live are sealed in the scriptures. We learn them through trial and error and hard knocks if at all.Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
The Bible is sealed until after the six-thousand-year training and weeding out period.
The harder you have to work for something the more you appreciate it.
So the Bible story line is about how man can gain everlasting life and thus equality with the original angels.
Under the Old Testament we could gain everlasting life by obeying all of God's commandments.
Under the New Testament, we must believe in Jesus as our Savior to gain everlasting life.
Those of us who gain everlasting life will replace those angels who failed in their earthly duties.
All other humans simply perish.
The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way.
Having learned this lesson, these new spirits being produced for the Kingdom of God, should be less inclined to revolt.
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Post #167
myth-one.com wrote:Do you believe all animals have immortal souls as all animals have the breath of life?
Where do the immortal souls of animals go for eternity at their physical death?PinSeeker wrote:. . . yes, I do. Obviously, you do not, and I respectfully disagree.
Will there be dinosaurs, and other animals that could not even make it in the natural world?
myth-one.com wrote:Also, Christians do not face the judgment.
Believers will be changed into spiritual, immortal bodies, as opposed to our present physical, mortal bodies. We are new spirits, and thus spiritual "children."PinSeeker wrote:Oh, but they do. All men -- people -- do.
This blessed birth occurs at the resurrection, thus we are children of the resurrection.
We are little children also in that all sins we ever committed as humans have been forgiven. We are sinless, just as we were when first born as a human.
The wages of sin is death, but we are now sinless, having been born again as spiritual, sinless children of the resurrection.
Why would any born again believers be judged?
There will be nothing to charge against us!
In fact, some of us will be involved in judging others:
Know ye not that we shall judge angels?... (I Corinthians 6:3)
myth-one.com wrote:Man became a (one) living being.
Good, there are two type of bodies -- natural bodies and spiritual bodies.PinSeeker wrote:Agree...
myth-one.com wrote:Not a spiritual being living within a physical being.
That contradicts your last statement that man became one living being. If man is a spiritual being living within a physical being, then man is two beings.PinSeeker wrote:Disagree...
Is it one or two?
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Post #169
The Bible is indeed about us, for we are the recipients of God's great salvation in Jesus; there's a three-part harmony.PinSeeker wrote:To the first of the two things that are very clear to you: One shouldn't expect to see "even one scripture" that explicitly tells us what will happen to us, because the Bible is not about us. From beginning to end, it's about Jesus and God's great salvation.Checkpoint wrote: Two things are very clear to me.
The first is you have an inability to show me even one scripture that explicitly says that our spirit or breath continues to live after death in a disembodied state.
The reason you can't is there isn't even one such verse, which is because it contradicts the meanings of both breath and death.
The second is you don't or can't "see from scripture what actually happens". And/or doesn't happen.
With respect, it is as "The Boxer" so aptly puts it, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest".
To the second: Oh, but you can. You absolutely can. But you're welcome to your opinion, and I respect it (and you).
Again, grace and peace to you.
He is therefore quite explicit concerning who we are and what will happen to us.Ephesians 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms.
4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love
5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Yes, you and I can grasp what God tells us, but do we?
Our opinions mean nothing, and change nothing.
The God who changes not says what He means and means what He says.
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Post #170
That depends on what God decides, I guess...myth-one.com wrote: Where do the immortal souls of animals go for eternity at their physical death?
Hey, Noah's Ark is a picture of salvation; Jesus is represented by the Ark. We see Jesus in what we call types and shadows throughout the Old Testament, and this is one example. And on that Ark, there were two of every animal...
Don't know. I guess we'll see...myth-one.com wrote: Will there be dinosaurs, and other animals that could not even make it in the natural world?
myth-one.com wrote:Also, Christians do not face the judgment.
Believers will be changed into spiritual, immortal bodies, as opposed to our present physical, mortal bodies. We are new spirits, and thus spiritual "children." [/quote]PinSeeker wrote:Oh, but they do. All men -- people -- do.
Um, I think you're talking about at least two very different things here, myth-one. The first of these two sentences is really about the Judgment, which will occur when Jesus comes back. And it's true, for believers who are still physically alive at the time of Jesus's return, but not for those who have previously physically died. Those who have died will be reunited with their physical bodies; this is the resurrection. The second of these two sentences describes us now... sort of... We have a physical body with two natures, the old, sinful nature (which is passing away), and the new spiritual nature, given to us by God (Ezekiel 36: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you...")
Nope. For us Christians, spiritual rebirth has already occurred...myth-one.com wrote: This blessed birth occurs at the resurrection, thus we are children of the resurrection.
Well, we can live as if we are sinless (already glorified), because Christ has won us the victory. But alas, we still sin. This is why continual confession and repentance is necessary. But thanks be to God that, when we confess our sin and ask for forgiveness, God is faithful and just to forgive (1 John 1:9)myth-one.com wrote: We are sinless, just as we were when first born as a human.
We're not sinless; see above. But God has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1). So you got that right, but now you're contradicting yourself (you've been saying the new birth only happens when we die ("at the resurrection", which is not correct.myth-one.com wrote: The wages of sin is death, but we are now sinless, having been born again as spiritual, sinless children of the resurrection.
All men are judged; Scripture is very clear on this.myth-one.com wrote: Why would any born again believers be judged?
We will be judged righteous, because Jesus's righteousness has been imputed to us.myth-one.com wrote: There will be nothing to charge against us!
Nope. One body, that is either:myth-one.com wrote: ...there are two type of bodies -- natural bodies and spiritual bodies.
- a. solely natural and not spiritual in nature, or
b. both natural and spiritual in nature.
Now, at the Judgment:
* Some will remain as described -- if they are still alive at the time of Jesus's coming -- in (a) above; those who have died will have their bodies resurrected also, but will remain this way. And then they will be sent away.
* But those described by (b) above when they lived on earth or who are still alive at Jesus's coming will be changed, certainly; they're bodies will no longer be natural and spiritual, but only spiritual -- just like Jesus.
Nope, only a contradiction in your own mind. Not "two beings," but one being with two natures.myth-one.com wrote:myth-one.com wrote:Not a spiritual being living within a physical being.That contradicts your last statement that man became one living being. If man is a spiritual being living within a physical being, then man is two beings.PinSeeker wrote:Disagree...
You're equating yourself with God? Now, this is obviously a joke, myth-one. Laugh. It's funny.myth-one.com wrote: I note that you are in the "Has read the entire Bible"usergroup. If you have done so, you have read my thoughts already.
Round and round we go (over and over again)...
I mean -- really, myth-one. Why must we keep going? Can you not just say, "Okay, PinSeeker. I getcha. We disagree on several things. Have a nice day" and let it go?
Last edited by PinSeeker on Tue May 14, 2019 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.