New Covenant

[tryme]

This question comes from a reading of Jeremiah 31 , specifically verse 34 that says

‘They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,�

I was always taught that this was speaking of the new covenant especially the quote I will write my laws on their heart� but this all sounds to me a lot like the millennial kingdom in that No one has to even be taught any religion, and everyone is just born believes and knows. What do you think?

[Checkpoint]

Bully for you?

LOL! I don't even know what this means. How did "bullying" enter your mind, and who are you attributing that to? I mean... that's not important, but... I'm sort of at a loss...

I googled and found this explanatioh of its history:

In the 1500s and 1600s, the word bully meant an excellent person. Nowadays, bully usually means someone who hurts those weaker than oneself. The original, positive meaning is still preserved in the idiom bully for you.

Some in Jesus day had a similar expectation, one that Jesus corrected.

You're right; I was being facetious. We will have our physical bodies, though, just like Jesus. That was my only real point.[/quote]

Settle down now!

I think that needs to be redirected at myth-one. I'm really kind of having fun with this. LOL!

And I fell for it!

So the joke's on me.

Love it!

Again, grace and peace to you.

You too.

[PinSeeker]

The only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever is the devil... It will not be physical torture as the devil is a spiritual being.

Well, "torment" is the word used there, not "torture." "Torment" and "torture" are two very different things, myth-one. In the case of hell, the torment endured is not physical torture actively administered by anyone...

(like water-boarding, or ripping out of eyeballs or something)

.... much less is anything actually administered by God. Rather, it is total abandonment by God resulting from the decision(s) of the tormented. God finally gives them over to themselves (Romans 1)... He finally gives them the desire of their heart... for eternity.

This story did not actually occur.

No person with even half a brain thinks Jesus was speaking of anything that actually occurred there; it's a parable, which, by definition, is fictional. But it is, however, an allegory, and as such, gives us real, practical insight into a possible future reality if we ourselves were to continue down a certain path. This is precisely why Jesus told the (fictional) story (parable) of the rich man and Lazarus.

And, you may know this, but the name Lazarus actually means "he who God helps," which means by inference that God is not helping the rich man in any way, shape, or form in this parable, and THAT, myth-one, is his torment... his eternal torment.

It could not because most of it occurs in the future after the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection! The rich man and Lazarus have both died and been buried.

Nahhhhh, now that's just your opinion, which you are more than welcome to, but you're imposing something onto the Scripture that is just not there. If anything, one would have to say it was set in the past, because Jesus says, at the outset, "There was a rich man..." But Jesus doesn't give any kind of time setting for this parable, which means there is no time setting, which means this parable could depict and event at any point, be it the past, present, or future.

Then the parable advances far into the future after the millennium and the second resurrection. The rich man has been born again as a physical body as his name is not written in the book of life. He has been cast into the lake of fire and is about to suffer the second death... yada yada yada...

Just opinion. And, in my humble opinion (and that of most notable Christian theologians past and present), incorrect. Sometimes we let our beliefs/opinions shape Scripture instead of the other way around; Scripture should shape our beliefs/opinions.

It's very sad that many Christians...

...can't let disagreements about non-salvific matters go, because such is one cause of perpetuated conflict (and thus sin) between believers and is terribly detrimental to the brotherly unity of the saints in Christ Jesus. Yes, that's truly sad. But, thanks be to God, one great day there will be no more of that. As Christians, we all long for that day.

Grace and peace... and love... to you in the matchless Name of our savior and Lord Jesus Christ, myth-one.

[PinSeeker]

In the 1500s and 1600s, the word bully meant an excellent person. Nowadays, bully usually means someone who hurts those weaker than oneself. The original, positive meaning is still preserved in the idiom bully for you.

I think, Checkpoint, an html tag might have been omitted from your last post, resulting in the above quote. And I think I am understanding that the third sentence above is an actual quote from you and thus a great compliment directed at me. At least, that's how I understand it. If so, much the same to you, brother.

At any rate, I say to you, in the words of Aaron in Numbers 6:

• May the LORD bless you, and keep you; may the LORD make His face shine on you, and be gracious to you; may the LORD lift up His countenance on you, and give you peace.

And the same to myth-one.

[Checkpoint]

In the 1500s and 1600s, the word bully meant an excellent person. Nowadays, bully usually means someone who hurts those weaker than oneself. The original, positive meaning is still preserved in the idiom bully for you.

I think, Checkpoint, an html tag might have been omitted from your last post, resulting in the above quote. And I think I am understanding that the third sentence above is an actual quote from you and thus a great compliment directed at me. At least, that's how I understand it. If so, much the same to you, brother.

At any rate, I say to you, in the words of Aaron in Numbers 6:

• May the LORD bless you, and keep you; may the LORD make His face shine on you, and be gracious to you; may the LORD lift up His countenance on you, and give you peace.

And the same to myth-one.

Thank you Pinseeker.

There should be more positive posts like this one of yours, on this sub-forum.

Although we will continue to disagree on some key points, let us aim to always do so with grace toward and respect for one another.

But no, I quoted directly from what Google presented to me; I wrote none of those words.

Grace and peace.

[myth-one.com]

. . . and THAT, myth-one, is his torment... his eternal torment.

Nowhere is it said that Lazarus' torment lasts eternally.

The only being said to be tormented eternally is the devil.

The punishment or wages for the sins of nonbelievers is what is said to be everlasting or eternal:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do you know what the wages of sin is according to the scriptures??

[PinSeeker]

. . . and THAT, myth-one, is his torment... his eternal torment.

Nowhere is it said that Lazarus' torment lasts eternally.

Um.... myth-one. Point of order. Just how did you "get" that Jesus is anywhere in that parable referring to Lazarus undergoing any kind of torment? Or that I am? I mean, if you are understanding that from what I said, I think if I were you, I'd call into question my own comprehension skills. But certainly, that's your own business.

Firmly established (many, many times over now) is the difference in your understanding of what the biblical concept of death is... and mine. That difference will not be resolved.

Dude. DUDE! Stop. Please. Please stop.

[myth-one.com]

. . . and THAT, myth-one, is his torment... his eternal torment.

Nowhere is it said that Lazarus' torment lasts eternally.

Firmly established (many, many times over now) is the difference in your understanding of what the biblical concept of death is... and mine. That difference will not be resolved.

Dude. DUDE! Stop. Please. Please stop.

Death is the absence of life.

You deny death, claiming that all humans will live forever. And that is expected -- as most Christians do the same.

However, one needs to be careful in redefining words in the scriptures:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Death means death. And we are warned against making any "private interpretations":

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (II Peter 1:20)

Also, it is a sin for a man to assume the characteristics of God:

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:31-33)

That is the sin of blasphemy. So assuming to oneself the Godly characteristic of immortality would be blasphemy.

And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? (Luke 5:20-21)

In addition, there is one unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)

The Holy Spirit came to the earth before Jesus ascended.

He is here as our helper and Comforter.

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable.

Please be careful.

[Elijah John]

I mean, if you are understanding that from what I said, I think if I were you, I'd call into question my own comprehension skills. But certainly, that's your own business.


Dude. DUDE! Stop. Please. Please stop.

Moderator Comment

Your tone is uncivil in this post. Also, do not question another's comprehension skills, even indirectly.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[myth-one.com]

Firmly established (many, many times over now) is the difference in your understanding of what the biblical concept of death is... and mine. That difference will not be resolved.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant. -- Random House College Dictionary

Now, let me give an explanation of "death" as used in the scriptures:


The Bible describes physical and spiritual forms of life. Spiritual beings consist of God and the angels.

The physical life forms consist of every life form which is not spiritual. This includes plants, insects, germs, viruses, fish, birds, animals, and others. Man is an animal.

All physical life forms share one very important characteristic. All die! Spiritual life forms live for eternity. This is the characteristic which distinguishes man from spiritual beings.

According to the Bible, two separate and distinct deaths can befall man. The first and most obvious death ends our short one hundred and twenty year maximum life which we are presently living on the earth. After man sinned, God placed an upper limit on the life of the physical human body:

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

This first "death" is appointed unto all mankind:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, . . . (Hebrews 9:27)

Our second possible physical death is described in the book of Revelation:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

Individuals whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their "second death". They die because they are physical bodies which can die.

They are physical bodies because they have never believed in Jesus and been born again as a spirit which cannot die. It is very important to notice that this death is actually labeled as a death! That is, it is final and eternal.

There is no recovery or return from the second death! This truly fits the definition of the word death. It is the permanent cessation of all vital life functions!

Let's examine how the Bible considers man's first death. When the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. In fact, when Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated they were not dead, but simply asleep:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn... (Mark 5:39-40)

Was Jesus lying, or did He know something which no one else knew? Of course, the answer is the latter. If Jesus lied about the dead being asleep when they were actually dead, then He sinned and could not be a valid sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all. It does not meet the definition of death. That is, it is not final or permanent. As doctors and medical technicians "restore life" to someone after their heart has stopped for minutes, God is going to restore the physical life of nonbelievers at the second resurrection many years after their first "death". In many cases after having been "dead" for thousands of years. Therefore, their first death is not actually a death because it is not final and permanent. They will live again.

It is final to us here on the earth. That is, man cannot restore another man's life after his first death, only God can. So Jesus did not lie when He stated that Lazarus' stinking body which had been lying in the grave for four days was only sleeping:

Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. (John 11:39)

When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death within man's physical world:

Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14)

In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, did He lie. Both statements are true! One was from God's point of view and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective there is one true death, the second death.

Once one understands the two deaths described in the Bible, it becomes much easier to understand the scriptures. However, one needs to distinguish which is being referred to in the context of each verse. Words such as sleep, slumber, and rest are used to refer to man's first death. Words such as die, death, and perish are used to refer to man's permanent second death. For example:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Since die is used, this scripture refers to the second death. Otherwise, the word sleep or rest would have been used. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore, we are all headed for the second death. The good news is that God intervenes:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Once again, a key word denoting permanence indicates that Jesus is saving us from the second death. That word is perish. If believing in Jesus kept Christians from perishing in the first death, then certainly people like Peter and Paul and millions of other dead Christians would still be alive today! This would invalidate the one hundred and twenty-year limit placed on the human body. Since we are only sleeping or resting in our graves, this word perish indicates the second death.

Perish means to disappear forever, which is what happens to those who suffer the second death. Everyone who dies the first death will be resurrected, whether Christian or not. Therefore, when we die the first death, we do not perish.

Since God gave His only Son so that those who believe in Him should not perish, this promise protects us from the second death. From God's prospective, we do not perish due to our first death, we simply rest:

For we which have believed do enter into rest... (Hebrews 4:3)

The "rest" used in this context indicates what happens to Christians after our first physical death. We are said to "Rest in Peace," indicating exactly what the Bible confirms:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

The dead are at total rest. They know and are aware of absolutely nothing! They do not even know they are dead. They are not in heaven with God or burning in hellfire or in purgatory. There are not spirits or ghosts of dead humans running around the earth spooking people. That fact should ruin many bad movie and book plots for you, but it is a fact!

The only spiritual beings around are God and the angels. God has existed from the beginning, and He created the angels. And He will be creating more from those that believe in Jesus.

[PinSeeker]

Firmly established (many, many times over now) is the difference in your understanding of what the biblical concept of death is... and mine. That difference will not be resolved.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant. -- Random House College Dictionary

Now, let me give an explanation of "death" as used in the scriptures:


The Bible describes physical and spiritual forms of life. Spiritual beings consist of God and the angels.

The physical life forms consist of every life form which is not spiritual. This includes plants, insects, germs, viruses, fish, birds, animals, and others. Man is an animal.

All physical life forms share one very important characteristic. All die! Spiritual life forms live for eternity. This is the characteristic which distinguishes man from spiritual beings.

According to the Bible, two separate and distinct deaths can befall man. The first and most obvious death ends our short one hundred and twenty year maximum life which we are presently living on the earth. After man sinned, God placed an upper limit on the life of the physical human body:

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

This first "death" is appointed unto all mankind:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, . . . (Hebrews 9:27)

Our second possible physical death is described in the book of Revelation:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

Individuals whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their "second death". They die because they are physical bodies which can die.

They are physical bodies because they have never believed in Jesus and been born again as a spirit which cannot die. It is very important to notice that this death is actually labeled as a death! That is, it is final and eternal.

There is no recovery or return from the second death! This truly fits the definition of the word death. It is the permanent cessation of all vital life functions!

Let's examine how the Bible considers man's first death. When the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. In fact, when Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated they were not dead, but simply asleep:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn... (Mark 5:39-40)

Was Jesus lying, or did He know something which no one else knew? Of course, the answer is the latter. If Jesus lied about the dead being asleep when they were actually dead, then He sinned and could not be a valid sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all. It does not meet the definition of death. That is, it is not final or permanent. As doctors and medical technicians "restore life" to someone after their heart has stopped for minutes, God is going to restore the physical life of nonbelievers at the second resurrection many years after their first "death". In many cases after having been "dead" for thousands of years. Therefore, their first death is not actually a death because it is not final and permanent. They will live again.

It is final to us here on the earth. That is, man cannot restore another man's life after his first death, only God can. So Jesus did not lie when He stated that Lazarus' stinking body which had been lying in the grave for four days was only sleeping:

Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. (John 11:39)

When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death within man's physical world:

Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14)

In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, did He lie. Both statements are true! One was from God's point of view and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective there is one true death, the second death.

Once one understands the two deaths described in the Bible, it becomes much easier to understand the scriptures. However, one needs to distinguish which is being referred to in the context of each verse. Words such as sleep, slumber, and rest are used to refer to man's first death. Words such as die, death, and perish are used to refer to man's permanent second death. For example:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Since die is used, this scripture refers to the second death. Otherwise, the word sleep or rest would have been used. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore, we are all headed for the second death. The good news is that God intervenes:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Once again, a key word denoting permanence indicates that Jesus is saving us from the second death. That word is perish. If believing in Jesus kept Christians from perishing in the first death, then certainly people like Peter and Paul and millions of other dead Christians would still be alive today! This would invalidate the one hundred and twenty-year limit placed on the human body. Since we are only sleeping or resting in our graves, this word perish indicates the second death.

Perish means to disappear forever, which is what happens to those who suffer the second death. Everyone who dies the first death will be resurrected, whether Christian or not. Therefore, when we die the first death, we do not perish.

Since God gave His only Son so that those who believe in Him should not perish, this promise protects us from the second death. From God's prospective, we do not perish due to our first death, we simply rest:

For we which have believed do enter into rest... (Hebrews 4:3)

The "rest" used in this context indicates what happens to Christians after our first physical death. We are said to "Rest in Peace," indicating exactly what the Bible confirms:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

The dead are at total rest. They know and are aware of absolutely nothing! They do not even know they are dead. They are not in heaven with God or burning in hellfire or in purgatory. There are not spirits or ghosts of dead humans running around the earth spooking people. That fact should ruin many bad movie and book plots for you, but it is a fact!

The only spiritual beings around are God and the angels. God has existed from the beginning, and He created the angels. And He will be creating more from those that believe in Jesus.

Thanks for your opinion. Again.