Jesus was ostensibly sacrificed for the forgiveness of sins.
Why could not God just forgive sins without having Jesus
go through torture and death to somehow enable God to
forgive sins?[/b]
Jesus
Moderator: Moderators
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14003
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 906 times
- Been thanked: 1629 times
- Contact:
Re: Jesus
Post #3@
cardslinger61: Jesus was ostensibly sacrificed for the forgiveness of sins.
Why could not God just forgive sins without having Jesus
go through torture and death to somehow enable God to
forgive sins?
William: The story of Jesus as a whole - in a nut shell - is as follows;
Jesus is the reason that this physical universe exists and also its metaphysical counterpart.
Certain things did not pan out as intended and on occasion Jesus took action within his creation to try and rectify such matters.
Human beings were long into the habitual practice of offering blood sacrifices to their idea of GOD. Even Abraham thought his GOD wanted that from him and Abraham showed his willingness to comply.
This single act was the most likely one which prompted Jesus to understand that he would need to take action within his creation to rectify the matter once and for all.
In this sense his actions were proclaiming - "You want your GOD to demand blood sacrifice, then this one and only time, I will oblige you with the only sacrifice I can deem as acceptable. After this, "No More Blood Sacrifices" and any which are done, are not sanctioned by me. They belong to your false ideas of GOD and your false beliefs about what GOD wants."
cardslinger61: Jesus was ostensibly sacrificed for the forgiveness of sins.
Why could not God just forgive sins without having Jesus
go through torture and death to somehow enable God to
forgive sins?
William: The story of Jesus as a whole - in a nut shell - is as follows;
Jesus is the reason that this physical universe exists and also its metaphysical counterpart.
Certain things did not pan out as intended and on occasion Jesus took action within his creation to try and rectify such matters.
Human beings were long into the habitual practice of offering blood sacrifices to their idea of GOD. Even Abraham thought his GOD wanted that from him and Abraham showed his willingness to comply.
This single act was the most likely one which prompted Jesus to understand that he would need to take action within his creation to rectify the matter once and for all.
In this sense his actions were proclaiming - "You want your GOD to demand blood sacrifice, then this one and only time, I will oblige you with the only sacrifice I can deem as acceptable. After this, "No More Blood Sacrifices" and any which are done, are not sanctioned by me. They belong to your false ideas of GOD and your false beliefs about what GOD wants."
-
- Newbie
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm
Why was Jesus crucified.
Post #5Jesus had to be crucified because he was an insurrectionist, and Romans crucified insurrectionists. (In the case of Spartacus, Romans crucified 6000 of his followers along thee Appian Way).
He claimed to be the Missiah who was to be a man, was to sit on the throne of David, and was to return the rule to Israel.
"For our sins" was a much later addition to the story.
He claimed to be the Missiah who was to be a man, was to sit on the throne of David, and was to return the rule to Israel.
"For our sins" was a much later addition to the story.
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1330
- Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
- Location: Canada
- Has thanked: 32 times
- Been thanked: 66 times
Post #6
Forgive me for responding with a "cut and paste" job, but I don't have time to explain it myself and this fellow did a good job of it:
I think this makes more sense if you think of God’s ridding our sins as a discharging of debt. Imagine you have violated the law and face a $50,000 fine. You tell the judge that you are truly sorry for your crime, but the judge responds “I certainly hope so. You’ve violated the law. Now, pay this fine.� You respond “No, I cannot. This debt is too much for me to bare. I promise I won’t do it again. Just please forgive me.� and the judge says “I can’t do that. The law requires that you pay this fine or face prison. I would be a corrupt judge if I just let you off Scott free. Someone has got to pay the penalty.� You begin to despair because you know the judge cannot just simply forgive you, but neither can you save yourself from this massive debt. Suddenly, something takes you by surprise. The judge steps down from his bench and walks over to you. Then he reaches into his pocket and takes out his wallet, handing you $50,000 in cash saying that he will pay the fine for you (should you accept his offer).
This is analogous to our sin situation. We have all strayed from God’s laws (Romans 3:23), and are therefore guilty before Him, deserving death (Romans 6:23a). God has to punish evil because He is just (Psalm 9:7-8, Psalm 9:16, Psalm 11:16). If He did not punish us, He wouldn’t be a just judge, just as the judge in the illustration above wouldn’t be just if he had let the fine go unpaid. So God must punish us. However, God is also loving (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16) and therefore desires not to punish us for our crimes. Just like the judge in the above illustration, God stepped down from His throne, taking on human flesh (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5-8), and was punished in our place. He accrued the penalty to Himself by being crucified.
However, Jesus’ death is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition for salvation. Repentance is required for Christ’s death to be efficacious (Isaiah 55:7, Acts 3:19). If we reject Him, God’s wrath will remain on us (John 3:18, John 3:36). Just as if you were to reject the judge’s offer to pay your fine for you, if one rejects Christ, our sin-debt will remain unpaid.
Regarding animal sacrifices prior to Jesus’ death, I think these are analogous to credit cards. Credit cards don’t actually pay for anything, but they allow you to walk out of the store with your desired object until you have the money to pay for it. Likewise, animal sacrifices never discharged our sin-debt before God (Hebrews 10:4), but they were a sign to God that you were repentant and trusted in Him for salvation. God retroactively applied Jesus’ sacrifice to these Old Testament individuals.
https://crossexamined.org/cant-god-just-forgive-us/
I hope that helps you understand it better, cardslinger61.
I think this makes more sense if you think of God’s ridding our sins as a discharging of debt. Imagine you have violated the law and face a $50,000 fine. You tell the judge that you are truly sorry for your crime, but the judge responds “I certainly hope so. You’ve violated the law. Now, pay this fine.� You respond “No, I cannot. This debt is too much for me to bare. I promise I won’t do it again. Just please forgive me.� and the judge says “I can’t do that. The law requires that you pay this fine or face prison. I would be a corrupt judge if I just let you off Scott free. Someone has got to pay the penalty.� You begin to despair because you know the judge cannot just simply forgive you, but neither can you save yourself from this massive debt. Suddenly, something takes you by surprise. The judge steps down from his bench and walks over to you. Then he reaches into his pocket and takes out his wallet, handing you $50,000 in cash saying that he will pay the fine for you (should you accept his offer).
This is analogous to our sin situation. We have all strayed from God’s laws (Romans 3:23), and are therefore guilty before Him, deserving death (Romans 6:23a). God has to punish evil because He is just (Psalm 9:7-8, Psalm 9:16, Psalm 11:16). If He did not punish us, He wouldn’t be a just judge, just as the judge in the illustration above wouldn’t be just if he had let the fine go unpaid. So God must punish us. However, God is also loving (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16) and therefore desires not to punish us for our crimes. Just like the judge in the above illustration, God stepped down from His throne, taking on human flesh (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5-8), and was punished in our place. He accrued the penalty to Himself by being crucified.
However, Jesus’ death is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition for salvation. Repentance is required for Christ’s death to be efficacious (Isaiah 55:7, Acts 3:19). If we reject Him, God’s wrath will remain on us (John 3:18, John 3:36). Just as if you were to reject the judge’s offer to pay your fine for you, if one rejects Christ, our sin-debt will remain unpaid.
Regarding animal sacrifices prior to Jesus’ death, I think these are analogous to credit cards. Credit cards don’t actually pay for anything, but they allow you to walk out of the store with your desired object until you have the money to pay for it. Likewise, animal sacrifices never discharged our sin-debt before God (Hebrews 10:4), but they were a sign to God that you were repentant and trusted in Him for salvation. God retroactively applied Jesus’ sacrifice to these Old Testament individuals.
https://crossexamined.org/cant-god-just-forgive-us/
I hope that helps you understand it better, cardslinger61.
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14003
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 906 times
- Been thanked: 1629 times
- Contact:
Re: Jesus
Post #7@
cardslinger61:What is meant by God's own justice?
William: The story of Jesus as a whole - in a nut shell - is as follows;
Jesus is the reason that this physical universe exists and also its metaphysical counterpart.
Certain things did not pan out as intended and on occasion Jesus took action within his creation to try and rectify such matters.
Human beings were long into the habitual practice of offering blood sacrifices to their idea of GOD. Even Abraham thought his GOD wanted that from him and Abraham showed his willingness to comply.
This single act was the most likely one which prompted Jesus to understand that he would need to take action within his creation to rectify the matter once and for all.
In this sense his actions were proclaiming - "You want your GOD to demand blood sacrifice, then this one and only time, I will oblige you with the only sacrifice I can deem as acceptable. After this, "No More Blood Sacrifices" and any which are done, are not sanctioned by me. They belong to your false ideas of GOD and your false beliefs about what GOD wants."
That is an example of "GODs Own Justice." Jesus 'Owned' it. He took it on. He said "Forgive each other your stupidity" as it were and said that since we required blood sacrifice then "so be it" our wish is his to command, since he is the only one who can.
"we" are still apparently choosing not to forgive each other...or GOD...so we are not accepting of the offer of sacrifice Jesus gave.
That is 'okay' because Jesus wasn't the one who made that a stipulation. It was his call, and why he also gets to be the ONLY judge.
This, because, how can we forgive each other while we yet judge one another?
cardslinger61:What is meant by God's own justice?
William: The story of Jesus as a whole - in a nut shell - is as follows;
Jesus is the reason that this physical universe exists and also its metaphysical counterpart.
Certain things did not pan out as intended and on occasion Jesus took action within his creation to try and rectify such matters.
Human beings were long into the habitual practice of offering blood sacrifices to their idea of GOD. Even Abraham thought his GOD wanted that from him and Abraham showed his willingness to comply.
This single act was the most likely one which prompted Jesus to understand that he would need to take action within his creation to rectify the matter once and for all.
In this sense his actions were proclaiming - "You want your GOD to demand blood sacrifice, then this one and only time, I will oblige you with the only sacrifice I can deem as acceptable. After this, "No More Blood Sacrifices" and any which are done, are not sanctioned by me. They belong to your false ideas of GOD and your false beliefs about what GOD wants."
That is an example of "GODs Own Justice." Jesus 'Owned' it. He took it on. He said "Forgive each other your stupidity" as it were and said that since we required blood sacrifice then "so be it" our wish is his to command, since he is the only one who can.
"we" are still apparently choosing not to forgive each other...or GOD...so we are not accepting of the offer of sacrifice Jesus gave.
That is 'okay' because Jesus wasn't the one who made that a stipulation. It was his call, and why he also gets to be the ONLY judge.
This, because, how can we forgive each other while we yet judge one another?
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Jesus
Post #8God sticking to His law. If you tell your child if you do X then Y will happen. If your child does X, Y must happen if you are a good parent.cardslinger61 wrote: What is meant by God's own justice?
Re: Jesus
Post #9Jesus taught that we must deny ourselves, and the self is really nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind. It is what we identify with. This is the sin Adam committed in the garden. Everything was fine as long as Adam reflected God, but when Adam began to reflect himself rather than God, he "fell". Adam became self absorbed instead of absorbed in God.cardslinger61 wrote: Jesus was ostensibly sacrificed for the forgiveness of sins.
Why could not God just forgive sins without having Jesus
go through torture and death to somehow enable God to
forgive sins?[/b]
So Adam and all his descendants now identify this idea of themselves with their body, and merely associating the two doesn't make them equivalent. Ideas are not physical bodies.
This identification is so strong that the gospel narratives equate the loss of one's identity with crucifixion. Jesus simply shows us the way, and tells us to follow him. Those who think they will save their lives, will lose them, but those who willingly let their lives go for Christ's sake will live.
Those who are unaware of this fact are forgiven by placing their trust in Christ, but to put one's trust in Christ is to follow him. So those who don't feel like getting crucified are probably not going to be saved.
Self denial also shows us that there's really no one to be forgiven. No self = no one left to forgive. It is the self that sins, but when the self is obliterated, there is only Christ. This is what Paul points out when he says, "not me, but Christ in me". He has lost his identity in Christ. He has undergone what psychiatrists refer to as a dissociative disorder.
Re: Jesus
Post #10cardslinger61 wrote: Jesus was ostensibly sacrificed for the forgiveness of sins.
Why could not God just forgive sins without having Jesus
go through torture and death to somehow enable God to
forgive sins?[/b]
God was of course subject to Roman law and crucifixion was the stipulated punishment for claiming to be a king, in opposition to the Emperor.
It is incomprehensible how any human being, punished under the law of the land, can be said to have died for the sins of, say Eskimos or Maoris or for people living sheltered existences in parts of the Amazon rain forest.