Does God's love and mercy transcend theology?

[Elijah John]

Is God bigger than any given theology? Does His love and mercy transcend theological claims of exclusivity, such as found in Fundamentalist Islam or Fundamentalist Christianity?

Does God's love and mercy go well beyond even John 3.16 or John 14.6?

Does God judge people on getting their theology "right", believing the right things about Jesus, for example?

Or is God more concerned about the loving-kindness in our hearts and how we treat our fellow human beings?

[PinSeeker]

Is God bigger than any given theology? Does His love and mercy transcend theological claims of exclusivity, such as found in Fundamentalist Islam or Fundamentalist Christianity?

I mean, His claim of exclusivity is what it is. He is the One True God.

Does God's love and mercy go well beyond even John 3.16 or John 14.6?

Well, his love and mercy go well beyond the simple understandings of many, for sure. Not that they're "dumb," or "ignorant," but that many -- maybe most -- still fail to realize just how great His love is. And, in a sense, all of us, in our finite-ness do.

Does God judge people on getting their theology "right", believing the right things about Jesus, for example?

No, of course not, but getting things right about God/Jesus is very important.

Or is God more concerned about the loving-kindness in our hearts and how we treat our fellow human beings?

I think we can let Jesus answer this one:

• ...when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?â€� And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.â€�

However, works without faith, while nice, are of no avail.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The thing is......YHVH made rules that run the universe, and he added more rules when his first humans rebelled. Because they caused the death of all of their offspring (DNA is what it is), they were guilty of shedding much blood. One big new rule for the human race: "there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood." (Hebrews 9:22) Blood for blood. This is YHVH's rule, and if we are going to go by what the Bible says, we have to accept that.

It might not be pleasant to us, but it is a rule ordained by God Himself. We can call Him heartless or cruel, but it doesn't change the fact that that is one of His rules.

Why keep hitting ourselves "against the goads"? (Acts 26:14) Jesus has already shed his blood. YHVH has accepted his sacrifice. Why should we complain? It's all taken care of. All we have to do is follow Jesus' steps and do what he says. (I Peter 2:21)

No one HAS to shed their blood again. YHVH and Jesus tell us in the Bible that we are to be peaceful and wait on Him (I Thess.1:10; Psalm 37:7).

"If we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." (I John 1:7, NASB)

[Elijah John]

Or is God more concerned about the loving-kindness in our hearts and how we treat our fellow human beings?

I think we can let Jesus answer this one:

• ...when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?â€� And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.â€�

However, works without faith, while nice, are of no avail.

I agree with you about the two great laws of love. However, Jesus also said that to treat others as we would have them treat us is the "Law and the Prophets".

The affirmation of the Golden Rule, it seems, is hope for atheists and adherents of other religions. For whatever impediments one has to belief, we can all embrace and abide by the Golden Rule in our dealings with others.

I remember reading James saying "faith without works is dead", but your twist is an interesting converse, though I do not agree that "works without faith..are of no avail". Also, Proverbs 21.21 states "whoever pursues righteousness and kindness will find life and honor". Atheists can pursue righteousness as well as believers, and strive to live by the Golden Rule in all their dealings.

[PinSeeker]

I agree with you about the two great laws of love. However, Jesus also said that to treat others as we would have them treat us is the "Law and the Prophets".

Is this not a restatement of the second of the two? It is. Love others as yourself. It can be restated as, "serve others as yourself," or "do good works for others as you would yourself." And aside from that, as Christians, we are to regard others as more important than ourselves and to offer ourselves as living sacrifices.

I remember reading James saying "faith without works is dead", but your twist is an interesting converse, though I do not agree that "works without faith..are of no avail". Also, Proverbs 21.21 states "whoever pursues righteousness and kindness will find life and honor". Atheists can pursue righteousness as well as believers, and strive to live by the Golden Rule in all their dealings.

Right. It's not a "twist," but rather a misunderstanding on your part, but probably my fault for not making myself more clear. I was only talking about works without faith being of no avail concerning God's salvation. Which is what Proverbs 21:21 is stating. Pursuing righteousness and kindness, as referred to in that verse, is part of the fruit of the Spirit and thus is a natural consequence of having received from God the gift of faith. Salvation is not given based on our works; in that sense, they are of no avail.

[marco]

However, works without faith, while nice, are of no avail.

In Matthew 25 we have: "'Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'


This suggests that righteousness is indicated by the way people have treated others. Jesus made a point of saying that the act is better than mere repetition of a rule. This insistence on requiring faith as a passport to heaven was responsible for condemning unbaptised infants to a part of hell. Jesus was always more impressed by what a man did, rather than the clothes he wore. The reviled Samaritan may not have had have the right faith, but he surely had the right works.

[PinSeeker]

However, works without faith, while nice, are of no avail.

In Matthew 25 we have: "'Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'


This suggests that righteousness is indicated by the way people have treated others. Jesus made a point of saying that the act is better than mere repetition of a rule. This insistence on requiring faith as a passport to heaven was responsible for condemning unbaptised infants to a part of hell. Jesus was always more impressed by what a man did, rather than the clothes he wore. The reviled Samaritan may not have had have the right faith, but he surely had the right works.

But I would say the reviled Samaritan had the right works precisely because he had the right faith. And again, any righteousness one might have is not of himself. A person is not made righteous by his works. His righteousness is the righteousness of Christ and is imputed to him because of his faith, which is itself a gift of God. We see this clearly in Ephesians 2:

• "For by (God's) grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are (God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

The thing about "condemning unbaptised infants to a part of hell..." is rubbish only perpetrated by some undiscerning folk. God can work faith -- baptism by His Spirit is the only effectual baptism with regard to salvation, not that of men -- in anyone regardless of age, and does so according to His good pleasure (His will).

And Jesus was always "impressed" far more by faith than by mere works or... clothes. All it takes to see that is a simple word search of 'faith' in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to see that. And mere works are equated in Scripture to filthy, polluted garments:

• "...all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment..." Isaiah 64:6

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Is God bigger than any given theology?

I think so. I like what this says;

All of your religions teach the worship of a deity and a doctrine of human salvation. It is the underlying kinship of your planet’s religions. However, I am not the deity that your worship falls upon, nor am I the creator of your doctrines of human salvation. Worship of me in coin or moral consideration is unnecessary.

Does His love and mercy transcend theological claims of exclusivity, such as found in Fundamentalist Islam or Fundamentalist Christianity?

I like to think so. It would seem more aligned with reality, for this to be the case.

Does God's love and mercy go well beyond even John 3.16 or John 14.6?

Essentially that is a theological claim attractive to folk who think blood sacrifice is what a GOD who created this universe would require.
I would suppose that this takes into account the reality we are experiencing in relation to nature, but only the hunter/prey aspects. There is far more to our reality than simply a planet feeding on itself in order to survive.

As far as any mediator goes, this too is a theological claim, attractive to folk who think less of themselves than the necessarily should. Does it work any more than any other medium? I get the idea that Jesus was promoting the individual connects with GOD. What medium(s) were the Jews using prior to this new idea, and was it working?

Does God judge people on getting their theology "right", believing the right things about Jesus, for example?

I like what this says;

Our union was, is, and will be forevermore. You are my blessed offspring with whom I am intricately connected in means that you cannot understand and therefore appreciate. You must suspend your belief and disbelief in what you cannot sense, in exchange for your knowing that I am real and live within you. This is my central message to all my offspring. Hear it well, for in it you may find the place in which I dwell.

I don't think GOD judges us right or wrong. Our actions do this. Theologies may be judged by us as right or wrong by how they lead us into activity, and the activity determines whether the theology (or any belief for that matter) is judged by us to be right or wrong.

Or is God more concerned about the loving-kindness in our hearts and how we treat our fellow human beings?

I like what this says;

There is no supplication that stirs me. No prayer that invites me further into your world unless it is attended with the feeling of unity and wholeness. There is no temple or sacred object that touches me. They do not, nor have they ever brought you closer to my outstretched hand. My presence in your world is unalterable for I am the sanctuary of both the cosmos and the one soul inside you.

and this;

Simply express your authentic feelings of appreciation to my inmost presence within you and others, and you broadcast your worship unfailingly into my realm.

[marco]

But I would say the reviled Samaritan had the right works precisely because he had the right faith.

Ah yes, the cart before the horse. It is by actions not words that a man's character is revealed. To claim some religious stamp on his right arm or left leg, instilling faith, is rather silly.

it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are (God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I love Paul's purpose clauses, heavy with proud certainty of his rectitude, explaining God to the nations. He is making things up as he goes along. Frequently, those who perform good works are the least likely to boast. We judge the tree by its fruit.

God can work faith -- baptism by His Spirit is the only effectual baptism with regard to salvation, not that of men -- in anyone regardless of age, and does so according to His good pleasure (His will).

Perhapss it is now your turn to compose. It is ludicrous to suggest a new-born infant has faith and any creed that so suggests is hardly worth troubling about.

"all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment..."

I understand this to mean "self-righteous" or "hypocritical" deeds, else the statement is rubbish.


When a person shows kindness to another, that is all that life requires. It is not necessary to bring God in on the act. Some religious folk might say that God is acting through the participant; others would say that goodness exists outside of religious communities.

[ttruscott]

Is God bigger than any given theology?

That's a given...theology is human understanding of what the perfect scripture is telling us.

Does His love and mercy transcend theological claims of exclusivity, such as found in Fundamentalist Islam or Fundamentalist Christianity?

It does NOT transcend the Bible in which exclusivity seems to be very important.

Does God's love and mercy go well beyond even John 3.16 or John 14.6?

How can it if - when the Bible is HIS words saying what HE wants said?

Does God judge people on getting their theology "right", believing the right things about Jesus, for example?

What we know has nothing to do with our guilt or our salvation...only our faith, in HIM or not in HIM. Faith is UNPROVEN HOPE... we do not have the knowledge of it yet.

Or is God more concerned about the loving-kindness in our hearts and how we treat our fellow human beings?

Our loving-kindness and how we treat our fellow human beings is works and no one is saved from the consequences of their sins by any work they can do...because a demon doing something humanly good is still a demon, condemned to hell already.