Pressing matters of the day and of all time, debated among thoughtful participants of all faiths

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

Reply to topic
Don McIntosh
First Post
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:52 pm  Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed Reply with quote

The explanatory logic of evolution, at least as it's commonly stated, fails because it assumes (wrongly) that what is true of the parts of a complex system may be validly inferred to hold for the whole as well. Thus my argument:

1. Evolution posits that the function of any complex biological system can be adequately explained as the accumulation of countless minor functional adaptations of its individual components.
2. To say that a characteristic of the whole system can be adequately explained in terms of a characteristic of its individual components is to say that a whole is equal to the sum of its parts.
3. To say that a whole is equal to the sum of its parts is to commit the fallacy of composition.
4. Evolution is a fallacy.

Note that I am not suggesting that all inferences from parts to whole fail to hold, but that the line of reasoning is fallacious on its face because in fact many such inferences do fail to hold. Given that specifiably complex biological systems are structurally heterogenous, there is no prima facie reason to think that what is true of the parts will be true of the whole. Evolution theorists therefore bear the burden of proof, namely, to explain why anyone should expect such an inference to hold in the case of specifiably complex systems.

Read the entire paper here:
https://www.academia.edu/38735629/Black_Box_Logic_Why_Evolutionary_Theory_Is_Fun...

Questions for debate: Is evolutionary theory a fallacy? If so, does that make it false?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Thu May 02, 2019 3:12 pm
Reply
Re: Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed

Like this post
[Replying to post 19 by Divine Insight]

Quote:
That's wrong. It's not because no transitional forms were found, but rather because every possible transitional form has not been found. Neither should we expect to find every possible transitional form.

If that's your argument against evolution, then you have no credible argument.


Which transitional forms where not found?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Thu May 02, 2019 7:42 pm
Reply

Like this post
Dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish. Don't know what part of that isn't being understood, but visit your local farm or zoo for the proof. Or better yet, stick a male and female dog in a room, and tell me what you will get in a year or less.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Thu May 02, 2019 7:43 pm
Reply
Re: Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed

Like this post
[Replying to post 16 by EarthScienceguy]

Quote:
If you want to go here we can go here.

Since Jesus was raised from the dead, that means Jesus is God and that creation actually happen.


Just more preaching and nothing to do with science. That's apparently all you are here for (ie. to preach). I'll pass.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Thu May 02, 2019 8:16 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 22 by For_The_Kingdom]

Quote:
Or better yet, stick a male and female dog in a room, and tell me what you will get in a year or less.


A year or less?? Let's see ... the average gestation period for a dog is about 60 days. So that would represent about 6 cycles per year if the dog was continuously pregnant. Do you really think that ToE says that speciation could happen in as little as 6 generations for a dog? Of course you would only get a dog in that kind of time period.

Try a large population of dogs on an island that undergoes sudden (eg. over a few thousand years) drastic climate change as well as drastic changes to the food sources and predator/prey mix. Come back to that island after 1 million years and see what the original dog population has turned into (if it exists at all). This is a more realistic example of when speciation might occur ... not "in a year or less." Seriously?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Thu May 02, 2019 8:22 pm
Reply
Re: Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed

Like this post
EarthScienceguy wrote:

[Replying to post 19 by Divine Insight]

Quote:
That's wrong. It's not because no transitional forms were found, but rather because every possible transitional form has not been found. Neither should we expect to find every possible transitional form.

If that's your argument against evolution, then you have no credible argument.


Which transitional forms where not found?


The extremely detailed ones demanded by supporters of Creationism. No serious biologist would expect that kind of detail from fossil records to begin with.

There are plenty of transitional forms between species. So that isn't even in question.

Besides, fossil records are hardly the only evidence for evolution. They are just additional confirmation. In fact, it won't be long before biologists will be using DNA as their new record of evolution and will no longer need to use fossil records. The record of evolution is retained in our very own DNA. So in the very near future we'll be able to understand how things evolved to a much greater degree of detail than we currently have. So modern day young biologists are in for a real treat. They will get to discover the evidence of our evolution via DNA instead of digging up old fossils.

Religions that depend on evolution being false are about to take a serious nose dive. What you are supporting really isn't much different from Flat-Earth societies.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Fri May 03, 2019 3:11 am
Reply

Like this post (1): benchwarmer
For_The_Kingdom wrote:

Dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish. Don't know what part of that isn't being understood, but visit your local farm or zoo for the proof. Or better yet, stick a male and female dog in a room, and tell me what you will get in a year or less.

A variations of the parental dogs, with mutation that may or may not contribute to the survival fitness of the offspring, i.e. exactly what evolution predicted would happen. Why? What do you think would happen?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Fri May 03, 2019 8:55 am
Reply
Re: Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed

Like this post
[Replying to post 23 by DrNoGods]

Quote:
Just more preaching and nothing to do with science. That's apparently all you are here for (ie. to preach). I'll pass.


It is called HISTORICAL SCIENCE. And it was you who asked for proof that God exists by your statement. You ask a Christian for proof that God exist they are going to go to Jesus, because there is no greater evidence that that. So if you do not want proof then don't ask for it.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Fri May 03, 2019 9:30 am
Reply
Re: Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed

Like this post
[Replying to post 25 by Divine Insight]

Quote:
The extremely detailed ones demanded by supporters of Creationism. No serious biologist would expect that kind of detail from fossil records to begin with.

There are plenty of transitional forms between species. So that isn't even in question.


Really?

That is not what texts book says.

"Most of the animal groups that are represented in the fossil record first appear, “fully formed” and identifiable as to their phylum, in the Cambrian, some 550 million years ago. These include such anatomically complex and distinctive types as trilobites, echinoderms, brachiopods, molluscs, and chordates. … The fossil record is therefore of no help with respect to the origin and early diversification of the various animal phyla…"

R.S.K. Barnes, P. Calow and P.J.W. Olive, The Invertebrates: A New Synthesis, pp. 9-10 (3rd ed., Blackwell Sci. Publications, 2001).

Many species remain virtually unchanged for millions of years, then suddenly disappear to be replaced by a quite different, but related, form. Moreover, most major groups of animals appear abruptly in the fossil record, fully formed, and with no fossils yet discovered that form a transition from their parent group.

C.P. Hickman, L.S. Roberts, and F.M. Hickman, Integrated Principles of Zoology, p. 866 (Times Mirror/Moseby College Publishing, 1988, 8th ed).


And papers.

Stefanie De Bodt, Steven Maere, and Yves Van de Peer, “Genome duplication and the origin of angiosperms,” Trends in Ecology and Evolution, 20:591-597 (2005).
In spite of much research and analyses of different sources of data (e.g., fossil record and phylogenetic analyses using molecular and morphological characters), the origin of the angiosperms remains unclear. Angiosperms appear rather suddenly in the fossil record… with no obvious ancestors for a period of 80-90 million years before their appearance




Stephen Jay Gould, a well-known evolutionist and professor of geology and paleontology at Harvard University, has stated, "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of the branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils."


From talk Origins
The theory of Punctuated Equilibria provides paleontologists with an explanation for the patterns which they find in the fossil record. This pattern includes the characteristically abrupt appearance of new species, the relative stability of morphology in widespread species, the distribution of transitional fossils when those are found, the apparent differences in morphology between ancestral and daughter species, and the pattern of extinction of species.

Need I go on. I can but I believe I made my point.

The Fossil record follows creationist predictions not evolutionary predictions. Creationist predict change according to Mendel's laws and that is exactly what we see in the fossil record. Every change outside of Mendel's laws are not seen in the fossil record.

This combined with Jeanson genetic paper describing all genetic changes happen in the last 5 to 10 thousand years and you also have proof of a young earth to boot. I thought I would throw that in for fun, to make the debate interesting.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Fri May 03, 2019 9:34 am
Reply
Re: Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed

Like this post (1): Divine Insight
[Replying to post 27 by EarthScienceguy]

Quote:
You ask a Christian for proof that God exist they are going to go to Jesus, because there is no greater evidence that that. So if you do not want proof then don't ask for it.


Providing "proof" that a god exists is not simply stating that it exists because some ancient holy book says so. That's how nearly all gods are described, but does absolutely nothing to show that any of them actually exist. It is circular reasoning (ie. god exists because he (or his "word") says so).

But you don't understand basic science (as proven by your defense of Humphreys' nonsense) so it isn't surprising that you think "proof" that the god you believe in exists is reference to the holy book that presents the story in the first place. No one has ever seen or heard this being, or any of its actions either directly or indirectly, so there is no reason to believe it exists.

Also, I didn't ask for proof that any god exists (that is your incorrect rephrasing of what I said). I commented that there is no evidence that gods exist, so no reason to believe that they do, and therefore no justification for using "god did it" as an explanation for anything. But of course you are happy to accept Humphreys' "god did it" assumptions as legitimate, which clearly shows that you don't understand how real science works and have been unable to support any of the points you've ever made from a real science perspective. All you do is resort to changing the subject when cornered, or referencing bible stories as if they were scientific evidence. Again, no science, all preaching.


Last edited by DrNoGods on Fri May 03, 2019 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Fri May 03, 2019 10:06 am
Reply
Re: Why Evolutionary Theory Is Fundamentally Flawed

Like this post
EarthScienceguy wrote:

Many species remain virtually unchanged for millions of years, then suddenly disappear to be replaced by a quite different, but related, form.


So please explain how this is supposed to fit in with the idea that there exists a purposeful intentional creator who "designs" life forms.

What happened? Did he suddenly realize that the designs he had created weren't so hot after all and needed to change them? That would imply that the creator is not a very good designer and is instead designing from trial and error.

Your arguments against evolution are backfiring on you.

As is often pointed out in these types of Creationists arguments. Whining about evolution does nothing at all for your cause. If you don't have a better explanation to replace it then you have nothing.

And obviously you don't. So whining about evolution isn't getting you anywhere. There is so much wrong with the Yahweh and Jesus rumors. Those rumors cannot possibly be true.

In fact, I suggest that the very reason that Abrahamic theists turn to complaining about evolution is precisely because they know that they cannot defend their religious dogma. So to avoid that topic entirely they turn to trying to discredit evolution, like as if that would somehow make up for all the self-contradictions in their theology.

Even if evolution could be proven to be wrong, that's not going to justify the Biblical stories. So you have nothing to offer to replace evolution in any case.

Your complaint that fully formed species suddenly disappeared doesn't help a case for a purposeful intelligent designer. No purposefully designed species should have ever become extinct. Especially not the early hominids.

So what's you explanation for why your proposed intentional designer had created so many failed species? Did he not know what he was doing?

You'll need to make your complaints about evolution work for your proposed intelligent creator if you expect to make any progress at all.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version