Discord? Disharmony? Conflict? Warfare?
Not in Gods kingdom, right?
Think about it, He is the Big Cheese, the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, the Infinite Fount of Awesomeness, not some newbie who can't balance the books of his own creation?
The most loving God and discord are mutually exclusive ideas are they not? The all powerful doesn't struggle at anything, right?
God can't war because God can't lose.
Spiritual warfare ain't fair at all. Gods got all the cards. He's always Got the nuts.
Satan is just marinating in Gods crockpot. Not fighting squat. Waiting to be put out of his misery.
Does fallen kingdom theology have any work arounds for these issues? Does it create a God of opposite, a God of paradox?
This God is too small, this God is just right...
Moderator: Moderators
-
kcplusdc@yahoo.com
- Apprentice
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:35 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
-
JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21144
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 795 times
- Been thanked: 1129 times
- Contact:
Re: This God is too small, this God is just right...
Post #2I'm not sure I understand what "fallen kingdom theology" is from your preamble. Could you briefly explain the main aspects of it? What "kingdom" is supposedly "fallen" and how?kcplusdc@yahoo.com wrote:
Does fallen kingdom theology have any work arounds for these issues?
Clarification appreciated,
JW
I found "kingdom theology" in Wikipedia but not "FALLEN kingdom theology"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_theology
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
kcplusdc@yahoo.com
- Apprentice
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:35 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Sure thing, not a problem....
Post #3I would think that all "things" created by the Creator would be his Kingdom. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Fallen refers to the state of the earthly kingdom and the discord in the heavans.
More importantly perhaps, is the (seemingly) contradictory attributes of an all powerful, loving God, and works that are in disharmony. Additionally are war, conflict, sin, and discord attributes that make sense when contrasted with an all powerful creator.
My personal approach to dealing with these issues is rejecting that man or Gods kingdom is in disharmony. It is an illusion. Unity can not be lost by God.
Fallen refers to the state of the earthly kingdom and the discord in the heavans.
More importantly perhaps, is the (seemingly) contradictory attributes of an all powerful, loving God, and works that are in disharmony. Additionally are war, conflict, sin, and discord attributes that make sense when contrasted with an all powerful creator.
My personal approach to dealing with these issues is rejecting that man or Gods kingdom is in disharmony. It is an illusion. Unity can not be lost by God.
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: This God is too small, this God is just right...
Post #4Right. YHWH is not at war with anyone. The end of HIS work here on earth has been predestined and predetermined.kcplusdc@yahoo.com wrote:The most loving God and discord are mutually exclusive ideas are they not? The all powerful doesn't struggle at anything, right?
HIS work is to redeem HIS sinful elect, sanctify them and make them holy, that is, heaven ready. This is ongoing at its most perfect pace within both the stubbornness and fragility of HIS people. It has nothing to do with Satan.
Right now the Judgment against Satan et al is in abeyance, in a state of postponement necessitated by the sinfulness of the elect who are promised salvation because if the judgement were held they to would be damned for their sin against HIS promise.
So Satan is at war against YHWH and his strategy is to keep the elect in their sins to keep the judgement postponed as long as possible but there has never been any chance of success for him as things work to the good of them called for HIS purpose.
As for GOD's love being mutually exclusive to discord, yes. Usually. Given HIS purpose to create people HE could have a loving communion with, ie , achieve a true loving marriage with, it was an absolute necessity that HE allow HIS creation a free will or HIS purpose could never have been properly fulfilled. True love and a real marriage cannot be dictated or forced upon anyone.
And a free will that cannot reject a marriage proposal or cannot reject evil is not a free will. Therefore HIS loving goodness is not at odds with HIS allowance of evil, only its creation by opposition to HIS righteousness.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: This God is too small, this God is just right...
Post #6[Replying to post 5 by brianbbs67]
The fallen kingdom theology is related to the rise, fall and restoration of the kingdom of Israel.
The rise of the kingdom came to be about the time of King David. Where, the fall began around 930 BCE, when civil war broke out and the kingdom was divided into Judah and Israel or the 10 northern tribes. Generally, these northern tribes rejected the Levites as priests, the Levitical laws and God's Holy Days, in favor of pagan worship. Because of this, these 10 tribes would become known as the "lost ten tribes of Israel." They would lose their identity and become assimilated Gentiles. The restoration would occur at the return of the Messiah to this earth.
This is prophesied through-out the book of Amos and finalized in chapter 9. And, reinforced in Acts 15:13-17.
The fallen kingdom theology is related to the rise, fall and restoration of the kingdom of Israel.
The rise of the kingdom came to be about the time of King David. Where, the fall began around 930 BCE, when civil war broke out and the kingdom was divided into Judah and Israel or the 10 northern tribes. Generally, these northern tribes rejected the Levites as priests, the Levitical laws and God's Holy Days, in favor of pagan worship. Because of this, these 10 tribes would become known as the "lost ten tribes of Israel." They would lose their identity and become assimilated Gentiles. The restoration would occur at the return of the Messiah to this earth.
This is prophesied through-out the book of Amos and finalized in chapter 9. And, reinforced in Acts 15:13-17.
-
kcplusdc@yahoo.com
- Apprentice
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:35 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
After a bit of marinating...
Post #7Thank you for your reply Ttruscott. I always like your insight and this one is typical of your thoughtfulness.
In fact, at first I was pretty much going to leave it at that,a solid answer, not feeling the need to deconstruct or further the conversation with my inquiry.
Now I'm not sure that my experience is universal or that by any means I'm correct, but sometimes I'm prone to what I would call an indirect feeling or thought that
historically has meant that something is amiss or worth following up on
An impression, more than an actually concrete argument.
As was my experience here.
After reading your response, a picture of me in bed and a blanket came to my mind. I even heard a name for this idea, but honestly it took me a couple days to understand what perhaps instinctively was recognized by a part of me that seems to flare up from time to time.
To translate it into terms that may represent the idea more clearly I would call it the fallacy of the diminishing blanket. (Although it may not always take the form of a fallacy.)
Now hopefully this experience is universal enough that this discription will suffice.
Have you ever been in bed, close to sleep and your mind informs you that one of your body parts is not happy with its current temperature. So you reposition your blanket to take care of this need and now another part of you chimes in that it is unhappy with the new arrangement. Now this example in its worst form ends up with an infinite series of adjustment or if your lazy like me you realize that to be comfortable you are going to need a bigger blanket because try as you might with the one you have part of you is always left exposed.
So let's just get to the chase here, after about a day of me thinking about your response and getting this imagery of me struggling to get comfortable, I finally had had enough and basically said to myself, so what does this mean!? I can't just post a reply to Ttruscot that says my blanket isn't big enough so I don't agree with you.
Apparently this started the ball rolling. I started to understand what was bugging me.
Your answer isn't elegantly simple. In fact, to cover my inquiry, you uncover a multitude of other questions by invoking free will. So many questions that I recognize that going down that rabbit hole is futile.
Honestly, if some how we could agree on what free will is and if what God is doing is an example of it, i' m still not sure that we would ever get back around to how this relates to the discord in Gods creation. Just more questions.
It probably doesn't help that at best the idea of free will is pretty iffy. Science has come a long way in squashing that idea to near zero. The body and mind works in a specific way and not by the magic of inspired desicions.
Additionally the Adam and Eve story doesn't seem like a very powerful example for the free will camp does it. The one time the duo came together to show off thier free will and made a decision they were banished into some second rate existance, cursed and put on the no fly list.
I think the bottom line for me is that your line of thinking creates more problems than solutions.
In fact, at first I was pretty much going to leave it at that,a solid answer, not feeling the need to deconstruct or further the conversation with my inquiry.
Now I'm not sure that my experience is universal or that by any means I'm correct, but sometimes I'm prone to what I would call an indirect feeling or thought that
historically has meant that something is amiss or worth following up on
An impression, more than an actually concrete argument.
As was my experience here.
After reading your response, a picture of me in bed and a blanket came to my mind. I even heard a name for this idea, but honestly it took me a couple days to understand what perhaps instinctively was recognized by a part of me that seems to flare up from time to time.
To translate it into terms that may represent the idea more clearly I would call it the fallacy of the diminishing blanket. (Although it may not always take the form of a fallacy.)
Now hopefully this experience is universal enough that this discription will suffice.
Have you ever been in bed, close to sleep and your mind informs you that one of your body parts is not happy with its current temperature. So you reposition your blanket to take care of this need and now another part of you chimes in that it is unhappy with the new arrangement. Now this example in its worst form ends up with an infinite series of adjustment or if your lazy like me you realize that to be comfortable you are going to need a bigger blanket because try as you might with the one you have part of you is always left exposed.
So let's just get to the chase here, after about a day of me thinking about your response and getting this imagery of me struggling to get comfortable, I finally had had enough and basically said to myself, so what does this mean!? I can't just post a reply to Ttruscot that says my blanket isn't big enough so I don't agree with you.
Apparently this started the ball rolling. I started to understand what was bugging me.
Your answer isn't elegantly simple. In fact, to cover my inquiry, you uncover a multitude of other questions by invoking free will. So many questions that I recognize that going down that rabbit hole is futile.
Honestly, if some how we could agree on what free will is and if what God is doing is an example of it, i' m still not sure that we would ever get back around to how this relates to the discord in Gods creation. Just more questions.
It probably doesn't help that at best the idea of free will is pretty iffy. Science has come a long way in squashing that idea to near zero. The body and mind works in a specific way and not by the magic of inspired desicions.
Additionally the Adam and Eve story doesn't seem like a very powerful example for the free will camp does it. The one time the duo came together to show off thier free will and made a decision they were banished into some second rate existance, cursed and put on the no fly list.
I think the bottom line for me is that your line of thinking creates more problems than solutions.
