The Hare Krishna movement

[Waterfall]

I have just sent some questions to Krishna.com that might be of interest to others:

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Hi

I have a question about the universe and its inhabitants.

As I understand you the soul (when it falls) begins with its own universe, but would that not create many universes with only 1 inhabitant? How do you account for the inhabitants of the universe?

Lets say I fall from the spirituel world today.

Will I then get my own universe? Or will I go to a universe with many inhabitants?

Can you explain things from the beginning?

What happens when a soul falls from the spirituel world?

To better understand my question we could say that 10 souls falls from the spirituel world... now...do we then get 10 universes with 1 inhabitant? Or do we get 1 universe with 10 inhabitants? If it is the latter then who begins as a god (Brahma) and who begins as a human or cow?

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 10 by William]

Hi William

That is alright. You tried to help me and thank you for that. Now I have found a forum where I can ask my questions:

http://links.krishna.com/category/Forums

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/

http://hindudharmaforums.com/forumdispl ... ndu-Dharma

Humans are animals...well...I would still find a conscious cow strange

Functions...smiling...playing football and things like that.

I have nothing against the animals, but I would not like to have a cow body.

Maybe a dolphin body...that could be fun...just to try it.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by Waterfall]

Waterfall: Humans are animals...well...I would still find a conscious cow strange

William: Cows are conscious. I think it strange that some humans do not understand this is the case.

Waterfall: I have nothing against the animals, but I would not like to have a cow body.

Maybe a dolphin body...that could be fun...just to try it.

William: What about the form of a planet - do you think that might be fun

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 12 by William]

Hi William

I do not think a cow knows it exist...that it has a body and are alive. A cow do not know it is a cow.

What makes you think that a cow is a conscious being?

The form as a planet...

I do not understand what you mean? A planet just moves around in space...can it play football? Or do anything?

[William]

Waterfall: I do not think a cow knows it exist...that it has a body and are alive.

William: Spend as much time as you need, studying internet videos of cow behavior until you change your thinking to better reflect the truth.

Waterfall: The form as a planet...

I do not understand what you mean? A planet just moves around in space...can it play football? Or do anything?

William: When you finally understand that a cow knows it exists, let me know and then perhaps we can get into discussion on what the planet does.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 14 by William]

Hi William

I have cats in my home and I do not think they are conscious beings either. Maybe I am using the wrong words.

I am just saying that a cow/cat do not know it is a cow/cat.

Would you not complain about your body if you had a cow body? Do cows complain about their body? Why not? Because they are unaware of their body? If I had a cow body I would complain and say...give me a better body...like a human body. With a human body I could smile and play football and things like that. Why should I be content with a cow body?

This is how I think and I could be wrong, but this is how I think.

Let me point to this picture again:

http://www.krishna.com/description-goloka

Why do Krishna not have a cow body? Why not give everyone the most functional body? Yes...we could have a cow body...but would we be content with that? Krishna do not seem to want a cow body?

[William]

Waterfall: I have cats in my home and I do not think they are conscious beings either. Maybe I am using the wrong words.

I am just saying that a cow/cat do not know it is a cow/cat.

William: Form is form. Most humans do not know that they are particles of GOD, because they identify with the form.
One could argue that the are not really that which they occupy, so I am thinking that this is the direction you are coming from in trying to say that other animals do not know what they are in any human language. They do not declare "I am a cat" but they behave as we know cats behave.
Now if you were to say "a car does not know that it is a car." I would agree, because a car does not appear to know anything due to there being no sign of conscious self awareness.
A car is not animated by conscious self awareness.
Cats and cows are.


Waterfall: Would you not complain about your body if you had a cow body?

William: What experience would I have retained that I could compare it to, in order to then complain? I do not know intimately what it is like to be a cow.
I do know what it is like to be a human. I would complain if one day I went to sleep having spent all my life as a human, only to wake up as a cow...but ONLY if I also retained the memory experience of having being a human.
My complaint would be focused upon what I was able to do as a human to which I am not able to do as a cow, due to the differences of form.

Waterfall: Do cows complain about their body?

William: No...unless they become unwell. Look at videos of calves and you will see evidence of celebration rather than complaint.

Waterfall: With a human body I could smile and play football and things like that. Why should I be content with a cow body?

William: Why should you be content with any body? The body is only a costume we wear. Being genuinely content is not the function of Earthly forms.
Would you be content to have no arms and legs? I am guessing by your expressions so far, that no you would not. Would that be the fault of the 'skin you are in' or the fault of the way you think about things?

Waterfall: This is how I think and I could be wrong, but this is how I think.

William: Maybe this video might help you correct your thinking...

Life happens. Your success and happiness depends solely on HOW you react to your circumstances. Watch this video.
This man is a great source of motivation and inspiration for everyone who watches him...

[yt]VbRxXPmgLe4[/yt]

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Hi William

I do not know either what it is like to be a cow. But I think it is fair to say that a cow do not know it is a cow. A cow do not declare...I am a cow and you are a human. A cow is driven by instinct and things like that.

I think it is a difficult subject.

My understanding comes from this book:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-o09.htm

Like human beings, the animals have primal urges that in part stem directly from Darkness, and in part from the regulating and harmonizing influence of the Light (of the corona of the Earth). These primal urges are inherited from individual to individual in the various species and families through the astral counterparts.
During the past millions of years, the counterparts of the many different species and families have acquired a certain amount of knowledge through experience, and this can likewise be passed on from individual to individual. This acquired knowledge lies latent until the animal has occasion to use it. The animal's physical brain will then, if necessary, be stimulated quite automatically by the astral brain, and the subconscious knowledge will manifest itself in the earthly world as instinctive actions and feelings. Since no spirit is bound to the animal body, an animal will always act strictly in accordance with basic urges and instincts, i.e., it will never have any conscious understanding of why it acts or feels in such a way. Without exception, every animal acts and feels only as it is prompted to act and feel by the subconscious knowledge of its astral counterpart. Not even the most extensive training by human beings can evoke independent thinking in an animal. All skills that the higher animal species have acquired through training will for them continue to be mechanical, subconscious knowledge. The new experience and the new knowledge acquired by the individual animal during its lifetime will be inherited by its offspring and will always emerge for the benefit of the animal should the occasion arise.
The greater the care and kindness animals are given, the closer many of them can attach themselves to human beings, and they can then in all their behaviour display an immediate devotion and faithfulness that can hardly be equalled in the human world. But even these feelings and expressions of devotion and faithfulness are instinctive and often acquired from generation to generation through their close association with human beings.

How can we say that an animal knows it exist? There most be something that makes you think that they know? If a cow were to say...I exist...then there would be some evidence of this knowledge.

Because a cow moves around and does things is not evidence of them knowing they exist. We know they exist, but do they know it? What do they know?

I have not studied the animals, so...

And the description above could be wrong.

Can you know that you exist without knowing that you have a cow body and not a human body? What do you mean by knowing one exist? How do a cow express that it knows it exist?

I am open to another understanding of things.

Do you think there is something wrong in wanting legs and arms? Yes...we could do without legs and arms...that is...a few of us...but not everyone. If there was nobody who had legs and arms then there would be no telephone to pick up. We would have a very hard time surviving in this world. It would be impossible. So legs and arms? Yes. We need them, right?

[William]

Waterfall: With a human body I could smile and play football and things like that. Why should I be content with a cow body?

William: Greetings Waterfall.
Why should you be content with any body? The body is only a costume we wear. Being genuinely content is not the function of Earthly forms.
Would you be content to have no arms and legs? I am guessing by your expressions so far, that no you would not. Would that be the fault of the 'skin you are in' or the fault of the way you think about things?

Waterfall: I do not know either what it is like to be a cow.

William: Do you think you could could draw some conclusion through observation of cows?

Waterfall: But I think it is fair to say that a cow do not know it is a cow. A cow do not declare...I am a cow and you are a human.

William: So a cow does not speak human languages tells you a cow does not know it is a cow? What makes a cow herd with other cows? Is it not also because they recognize one another as the same?

Waterfall: My understanding comes from this book:


William: The excerpt from the book you used, describes a humans interpretation of 'what is going on in relation to other animals' which appears different to what is going on in relation to the human animal.
There does not appear to be any useful reason as to why you believe the author thinks the same way that you do, about animals which are not human.

Waterfall: How can we say that an animal knows it exist?

William: By observing how they interact with their environment.
Anything that does not display consciousness interacting with its environment, might be considered to be something which doesn't know it exists.

Waterfall: There must be something that makes you think that they know? If a cow were to say...I exist...then there would be some evidence of this knowledge.


William: A cow does not need to speak to me in order to display evidence to me, that it knows it exists.

Waterfall: Because a cow moves around and does things is not evidence of them knowing they exist. We know they exist, but do they know it? What do they know?


William: Your argument appears to be that there is an extent to which a cow knows that it exists. You are arguing limitation of knowledge. The cow is limited in its capacity to know the details of its existence.
I have not been saying otherwise. My argument is that the form that a GOD-Particle of Consciousness occupies, largely determines the outcome of the experience that GOD-Particle of Consciousness has.

Waterfall: I have not studied the animals,


William: That may be because the GOD-Particle of Consciousness that you are, is in a human form and for some reason has not enough desire to study the animals in order to come to better conclusions.
The human form is normally perfect for such use. The GOD-Particle of Consciousness that we are can use it for the purpose of study of our surroundings. It is this which gives us each the ability to collect data, which immediately goes to counterpart in The Astral Realm, and as collected data is then returned to us from our astral counterpart. We need to have knowledge of that connection in order to vitalize the knowledge to the advantage of ALL.

Waterfall: Can you know that you exist without knowing that you have a cow body and not a human body? What do you mean by knowing one exist? How do a cow express that it knows it exist?

William: Science is the name of the medium through which we gather data of experience in order to build a picture. We know by observing that anything which responds to danger in a manner of self preservation, must have some sense of SELF, and it is this that we look for in determining if something knows it exists.
The expression from a cow which we observe...when we place some wolves into its enclosure, tells us it knows that it exists

Waterfall: I am open to another understanding of things.


William: That is advisable. The knowledge I covey to you is already known in The Astral - and it is through that connection that I learn of it myself.
The same GOD-Particle of Consciousness that animates the cow, also animates the wolves and the humans who set up the experiment, and the Eternal Being of The Astral observing us observing cows and wolves.
The lack of knowledge of the connection is what has made the GOD-Particle of Consciousness in said humans, go wobbly-wheeled. For that matter, even knowledge of the connection hasn't always been useful in correcting the wobble. However, it is still essential to our understanding or situation more fully.

Waterfall: Do you think there is something wrong in wanting legs and arms?

William: Only if you haven't got them. Some yearn to be something other than what they think they are. Once we each in our own time discover that we are GOD-Particles of Consciousness, will our yearning for something different subside dramatically and this will be more useful for our Astral Counterpart - a clear line of connection. This can only be good for everything.

Waterfall: Yes...we could do without legs and arms...that is...a few of us...but not everyone. If there was nobody who had legs and arms then there would be no telephone to pick up. We would have a very hard time surviving in this world. It would be impossible. So legs and arms? Yes. We need them, right?


William: They are useful yes. But my argument isn't about that. My argument is how we each USE what we have through the form we occupy.

A cow is being a genuine Cow, and the wolves are being genuine Wolves. My argument is that GOD-Particles of Consciousness in Humans have yet to become genuine, given the extra capabilities their forms afford them which enables this to potentially happen.
Other animal forms do not afford GOD-Particles of Consciousness such capability.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 18 by William]

Hi William

You are right about the quote (my understanding of what is being said could be wrong).

Just for the record.

The quote (or commentary) comes from a higher being:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

In 1908 a medium was contacted by intelligences from the spiritual world. The reason was that the transcendental world wished to make humanity acquainted with some facts regarding their origin, their relation to God and the battle between Light and Darkness - good and evil. The wish was also to inform about the true teachings of Christ freed from centuries of additions and distortions, as well as making known some of the divine laws which apply to all living beings in the universe.

On the basis of numerous questions asked by participants during several séances held in the years 1913-14, the work entitled "Toward the Light!" appeared. The medium worked solely as an intuitive-inspirative instrument for the intelligences who manifested themselves, without deleting or adding anything to the given information.

In this way the work appears as a direct revelation from the spiritual leaders of humankind. Those who read these writings should neither judge nor condemn before having accurately pondered every thought of the book.

/ The publishing house

This may or may not be true. But the medium was convinced that she had contact with higher beings. This is true.

The only problem I have with this book is the description of the universe. But maybe there are other problems...

Back to the cows.

How can i conclude that a cow knows it exist?

i cannot ask the cow...do you know that you exist? I might get a "muhh" out of it, but what does that mean?

I have no prolem with animals knowing they exist. I know that I exist. Maybe they know it to...

William: Science is the name of the medium through which we gather data of experience in order to build a picture. We know by observing that anything which responds to danger in a manner of self preservation, must have some sense of SELF, and it is this that we look for in determining if something knows it exists.
The expression from a cow which we observe...when we place some wolves into its enclosure, tells us it knows that it exists

Very interesting thought.

But do an animal have to know it exist to do things?

You talk about a GOD-Particle of Consciousness and that animals have it to.

I am not used to think that way.

According to this book:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-o09.htm

There is no spirit (thought and will) connected to the animal body.

But I am taking a step back from this book (because of the description of the universe).

Maybe this is of interest to you (I think you two could have a great conversation about things):

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread ... West/page3

I am reading and learning about others understanding and have not posted my questions yet.

[William]

Waterfall: Maybe this is of interest to you (I think you two could have a great conversation about things):

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread ... the-West/p...

I am reading and learning about others understanding and have not posted my questions yet.

William: Thanks for the link. I followed up and read what the author wrote and agree there is similarity in how we think about things.