Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

[Zzyzx]

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Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

Consider: A reasonably intelligent, informed, educated person who is truly neutral or undecided regarding belief in God asks you to give them:

Good reasons to believe that the Bible God exists

OR

Good reasons to doubt the existence of the Bible God



Supporting information would be helpful

[1213]

…Things that have been planned to happen are the exception rather than the rule. So as far as I can see I live in a world that is indeed dictated by chance….

Please give one example of thing that is dictated by chance?

For me, the God described in the Bible is a very selfish jealous God, by description. He's male-chauvinistic, self-contradictory in his commandments and demands of humans, and favors one particular culture over all others.

Interesting, I think Bible God is perfect and good, without any evilness.

The fallacy of the religion is obvious to me. There is no question whatsoever in my mind that even if a "God" exists, it's definitely not the God created by the ancient Hebrews. Their God is far too much like them. This is a God that they clearly created in their own image, not the other way around.

That is also interesting claim. Why would they invent God that judges them and tells how badly they act?

What is spirit? And where is your evidence that any such thing exists?

Bible tells God is spirit and God is love. Bible tells also that God created. So, spirit is something that is like state of mind and something that can create.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24

Evidence for the creator is things that exists as created.

…So the micro or Quantum Physics is the true description of our reality and it relies on chance to even function.

Why do you believe that?

Which is more likely? That some random quantum soup has always existed that just happens to create a physical reality by chance?

If “quantum soup� would be real physical matter, I would expect it to be really observable natural matter.

If there exists a purposeful designer then where are the explanations for:,...
1. Hideous birth defects in babies?
2. The existence of horrible diseases that can maim or kill innocent humans including babies.
3. Animals that are "purposefully designed" to prey on each other and eat each other, and even attack, maim, and kill humans? Why would a purposeful benevolent creator create these hideous things?
…

One explanation is here:

God allowed Him to be rejected, which resulted many bad things. I think it is good that God gave freedom and is not like common earthly fascistic ruler.

4. Finally, if you want to claim that your God has always existed, then how many Earth-like worlds has it created in the past? It must have created infinitely many of them…

I don’t see any reason why God must have created many earth-like worlds.

As far as I'm concerned it's not even remotely feasible, much less believable.

And yet you don’t even know what spirit means. I think it is not reasonable to say something is not feasible, if one doesn’t even understand what he is speaking of.

[Divine Insight]

…Things that have been planned to happen are the exception rather than the rule. So as far as I can see I live in a world that is indeed dictated by chance….

Please give one example of thing that is dictated by chance?

The position and orientation of elementary quantum phenomenon such as electrons, quarks, photos, etc. In fact, for Quantum Mechanics to work this must be true. And Quantum Mechanics works, so it must be true.

For me, the God described in the Bible is a very selfish jealous God, by description. He's male-chauvinistic, self-contradictory in his commandments and demands of humans, and favors one particular culture over all others.

Interesting, I think Bible God is perfect and good, without any evilness.

I don't see cursing a human woman and turning her into a pillar of salt as being perfect and good behavior. There are many other examples I could cite from Biblical mythology as well that I do not see as being perfect and good behavior of a God. So in this case we simply have a vast difference of opinion of what we consider to be perfect and good.

The fallacy of the religion is obvious to me. There is no question whatsoever in my mind that even if a "God" exists, it's definitely not the God created by the ancient Hebrews. Their God is far too much like them. This is a God that they clearly created in their own image, not the other way around.

That is also interesting claim. Why would they invent God that judges them and tells how badly they act?

The elders did this as a means of keeping their tribes under control. For you to ask why this would be the case doesn't make any sense to me. It should be obvious that this religion was created by men who were desperately trying to keep the masses in line. This religion wasn't created by the masses, obviously.

What is spirit? And where is your evidence that any such thing exists?

Bible tells God is spirit and God is love. Bible tells also that God created. So, spirit is something that is like state of mind and something that can create.

So that doesn't make it true, nor is this anything more than an empty claim being made by the people who wrote the Bible.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

Anyone can make an accusation like that but is it true? No, it's not true and we even have proof that it's not true because we have plenty of examples of humans who don't believe in any gods and they are still capable of loving others.

So clearly whoever wrote I John 4:8 was making a false accusation.

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24

Again, this is nothing more than an opinion written by someone who claims to be named John.

Evidence for the creator is things that exists as created.

And there is nothing in our world that has been "Created". Everything has evolved. Even when a woman gives birth to a baby that baby is not being "created" by anything other than the DNA that the woman already possesses plus the necessary DNA contributed by the father as well.

We don't see anything in this world that suggests that it was created by anything other than natural evolution.

…So the micro or Quantum Physics is the true description of our reality and it relies on chance to even function.

Why do you believe that?

Because the scientific community has produced overwhelming evidence that this is indeed the case.

Of course you could argue that the entire scientific community is in cahoots and is purposefully creating false claims about experiments that were never done. But how extremely naive would a person need to be to believe such an absurd claim?

Especially when you are free to study science and do many of the experiments yourself. You are actually free to show where they are wrong. Good luck with that.

Which is more likely? That some random quantum soup has always existed that just happens to create a physical reality by chance?

If “quantum soup� would be real physical matter, I would expect it to be really observable natural matter.

It is a really observable natural matter. We may not be able to observe it directly via our own eyeballs, but we can observe it via experiments and we have observed it.

Quantum Mechanics is real it produces real predictions and results. It cannot be denied. Time dilation is real. Relativity is real. Science reports on reality.

You're totally kidding yourself if you think this isn't true.

If there exists a purposeful designer then where are the explanations for:,...
1. Hideous birth defects in babies?
2. The existence of horrible diseases that can maim or kill innocent humans including babies.
3. Animals that are "purposefully designed" to prey on each other and eat each other, and even attack, maim, and kill humans? Why would a purposeful benevolent creator create these hideous things?
…

One explanation is here:

God allowed Him to be rejected, which resulted many bad things. I think it is good that God gave freedom and is not like common earthly fascistic ruler.

But this apology doesn't hold water.

A new born baby that is born with a birth defect didn't even have the opportunity to know about any God much less reject God. So your apology fails miserably.

Also, there are many case where strongly religious believers who love Jesus and Yahweh with all their heart and mind, fall prey to terrible debilitation diseases and even die from them.

So it's clearly a false religious apology to claim that rejection of God could account for the fact that diseases inflict everyone, both the religious and non-religious as well.

Apparently you are quick to buy into apologies that simply don't work.

4. Finally, if you want to claim that your God has always existed, then how many Earth-like worlds has it created in the past? It must have created infinitely many of them…

I don’t see any reason why God must have created many earth-like worlds.

So what was he doing for eternity? Twiddling his thumbs?

He would be an extremely sad being if after existing forever creating earth with evil humans and all manner of nasty disease is the best he can do after all that time.

It's simply ridiculous to claim that a God existed forever and only just now decided to create human pets that he hopes will worship and love him in spite of the fact that he clearly deserves neither worship nor love.

It's just not a rational scenario. And we can't be claiming that God isn't rational because that pretty much defeats the whole claim that he's perfect, etc. An irrational God would be far from perfect.

As far as I'm concerned it's not even remotely feasible, much less believable.

And yet you don’t even know what spirit means. I think it is not reasonable to say something is not feasible, if one doesn’t even understand what he is speaking of.

But you do claim that this God is "perfect", yet you simultaneously demand that he must be irrational based on reality. This latter condition arises whether you condone it or not.

So claiming that he's some sort of ill-defined notion called "spirit", which even you cannot define, does nothing to salvage this failed mythology.

Plus, you're clearly in denial of the findings of science. Quantum Mechanics is reality. It's been experimentally verified to be true. It's not just an abstract guess.

[Tcg]

But still, what the Bible tells, is the same. I think it is sad when “Christians� don’t remain faithful to the original teaching.

There is no single, "original teaching." The Bible provides a hodgepodge of teachings about God and Christian theology adds even more, usually in an attempt to erase one of the unpleasant attributes the Bible gives him. Followers are free to pick and choose what attributes best match their desired God and thus create their own custom version of God.


The result is that we have as many versions of God as he has followers. Even these versions aren't static, each custom God changes as the believer chips off the bits they don't like and adds a touch of what they like.



Tcg

[Divine Insight]

But still, what the Bible tells, is the same. I think it is sad when “Christians� don’t remain faithful to the original teaching.

There is no single, "original teaching." The Bible provides a hodgepodge of teachings about God and Christian theology adds even more, usually in an attempt to erase one of the unpleasant attributes the Bible gives him. Followers are free to pick and choose what attributes best match their desired God and thus create their own custom version of God.


The result is that we have as many versions of God as he has followers. Even these versions aren't static, each custom God changes as the believer chips off the bits they don't like and adds a touch of what they like.



Tcg

This is so true. We all create "God" in our image. Even when I was a Christian my view of Jesus and God were quite different from other Christians. In fact, back when I was a Christian my greatest antagonists were other Christians, not atheists.

Many Christians didn't like my views of Jesus as my views of Jesus were too 'nice'. They didn't like the idea of a 'nice' Jesus.

Later, after I had studied the Bible in more depth I came to the realization that I was indeed creating my own Jesus in my own image and that there is no consistent or compelling information in the Bible for a Jesus that actually existed. All that exists are contradictory rumors about a man who was supposedly named Jesus.

In fact, the Jesus I knew when I was a "Christian" wouldn't even give a hoot that I had finally rejected the entire religion. In fact, the Jesus I "knew" (i.e. the Jesus I had created) would actually be quite proud of me for rejecting all the immoral garbage the religion preaches. I honestly believe that if the actual man named Jesus were alive today he would be rejecting "Christianity" and their "Priests" in precisely the same why he rejected the priests of his day.

Apparently the "real Jesus" was far more like me, than like the Jesus held up by Christian theologians and clergy.

Although, to be fair, there are clergy who have created a Jesus very much like mine. So their Jesus is actually in harmony with my Jesus. Strange as that may seem.

Edited to Add:

By the way, if the really was a Jesus he was the absolute worst communicator in all of history. Even people who claim to believe in him all have a different idea of what he supposedly taught. So the one thing we can be absolutely certain about is that Jesus was a horribly ineffective teacher. Not a trait that a "Son of God" should possess.

[1213]

The position and orientation of elementary quantum phenomenon such as electrons, quarks, photos, etc. In fact, for Quantum Mechanics to work this must be true. And Quantum Mechanics works, so it must be true.

And can you explain how do you know it is by chance? What evidence we have that Quantum Mechanics works?

I don't see cursing a human woman and turning her into a pillar of salt as being perfect and good behavior.

She was warned and didn’t care about the warning. If I tell you that you will burn your hand, if you put it to fire, is it my fault if you don’t believe it and put your hand on fire?

The elders did this as a means of keeping their tribes under control. For you to ask why this would be the case doesn't make any sense to me. It should be obvious that this religion was created by men who were desperately trying to keep the masses in line.

It is interesting how you can write your own history. I think, if it would be from the leaders, they would not have included things that make them look not very good.

No, it's not true and we even have proof that it's not true because we have plenty of examples of humans who don't believe in any gods and they are still capable of loving others.

Love as the Bible teaches seems to be very rare. I have difficulties to believe you.

Everything has evolved.

Is there any intelligent reason to believe that?

Of course you could argue that the entire scientific community is in cahoots and is purposefully creating false claims about experiments that were never done.

It is possible that they just have done mistake. Mistakes are quite common in the history of science. What makes you believe that they got it right now and the “knowledge� doesn’t change after 50 years?

It is a really observable natural matter. We may not be able to observe it directly via our own eyeballs, but we can observe it via experiments and we have observed it.

That sounds very much like a religion to me.

A new born baby that is born with a birth defect didn't even have the opportunity to know about any God much less reject God.

How do you know that? Can you read minds?

Also, there are many case where strongly religious believers who love Jesus and Yahweh with all their heart and mind, fall prey to terrible debilitation diseases and even die from them.

How do you know that they were really strongly religious and loved Jesus?

Maybe it is so that even righteous person must suffer in this life. I think this “life� is like matrix, virtual reality, where evil things are possible so that people have chance to know what it means to be without God.

It's simply ridiculous to claim that a God existed forever and only just now decided to create human pets that he hopes will worship and love him in spite of the fact that he clearly deserves neither worship nor love.

Interesting thing is that Bible says:

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

I don’t see any reason to think God needs our “worship�.

And love, in Bible love God means this:

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

So, if we love God, we love our neighbor as ourselves. I don’t think it is really about God and something for God.

[Divine Insight]

What evidence we have that Quantum Mechanics works?

Nuclear reactors and power plants? Cell phones? Your computer?

To pretend that Quantum Mechanics doesn't work is some serious denial.

I don't see cursing a human woman and turning her into a pillar of salt as being perfect and good behavior.

She was warned and didn’t care about the warning. If I tell you that you will burn your hand, if you put it to fire, is it my fault if you don’t believe it and put your hand on fire?

If you are the one holding the blow torch and purposefully aiming it at people, then yes, it's your fault. Your excuses for this mythology are absurd.

The elders did this as a means of keeping their tribes under control. For you to ask why this would be the case doesn't make any sense to me. It should be obvious that this religion was created by men who were desperately trying to keep the masses in line.

It is interesting how you can write your own history. I think, if it would be from the leaders, they would not have included things that make them look not very good.

What leaders made themselves look bad? This was a political. The pharisees certainly didn't write the Christian Gospels. Besides if it was written by a God why would that God make himself look like such an ignorant jerk? So it doesn't help to claim that it was written by a God anyway.

No, it's not true and we even have proof that it's not true because we have plenty of examples of humans who don't believe in any gods and they are still capable of loving others.

Love as the Bible teaches seems to be very rare. I have difficulties to believe you.

Love as the Bible teaches wouldn't even be considered to be love by any normal human standards. It would be more like jealously, bigotry, selfishness and hatred spewed toward anyone who disagrees with you. That's not love.

Everything has evolved.

Is there any intelligent reason to believe that?

It's undeniable. Moreover it makes far more sense than to think that all the terrible things in this world were purposefully designed. Even you need to make excuses for all the terrible things in the world trying to blame them on the poor little innocent newborn babies. That's pretty sad when you need to claim that it's the fault of innocent new born babies that the world is so poorly designed.

Of course you could argue that the entire scientific community is in cahoots and is purposefully creating false claims about experiments that were never done.

It is possible that they just have done mistake. Mistakes are quite common in the history of science. What makes you believe that they got it right now and the “knowledge� doesn’t change after 50 years?

Because science works. There's going back. You can't change the fact that Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity actually work. That's never going to change.

You aren't even making any sense in your opposition to obvious truths. All in the hopes of supporting an ancient mythology of a God who supports ignorance, male chauvinism, slavery, and the killing of anyone who dares to collect firewood on the Sabbath. You can't be serious.

It is a really observable natural matter. We may not be able to observe it directly via our own eyeballs, but we can observe it via experiments and we have observed it.

That sounds very much like a religion to me.

There's nothing religious about accepting the facts of reality. Especially when you can test them out for yourself.

It is religious faith that makes you jump out of the way of an oncoming car? I think not. You simply know exactly what will happen if you fail to get out of the way. No religion required.

A new born baby that is born with a birth defect didn't even have the opportunity to know about any God much less reject God.

How do you know that? Can you read minds?[/'quote]

Oh please. You're really digging at the bottom of the apologetic barrel if your religion needs to have babies hating God even before they are born. If you can't see how utterly absurd that argument is then there's really no point in even trying to have a meaningful conversation with you.

Also, there are many case where strongly religious believers who love Jesus and Yahweh with all their heart and mind, fall prey to terrible debilitation diseases and even die from them.

How do you know that they were really strongly religious and loved Jesus?

Maybe it is so that even righteous person must suffer in this life. I think this “life� is like matrix, virtual reality, where evil things are possible so that people have chance to know what it means to be without God.

Again, this is nothing more than extreme denial of reality on your part. What you need to believe in order to support this religion is nothing short of utterly absurd. You may as well be arguing for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Your arguments are just as silly.

Surely if there were an actual God behind the Bible you wouldn't need to resort to these kind of absurd arguments.

It's simply ridiculous to claim that a God existed forever and only just now decided to create human pets that he hopes will worship and love him in spite of the fact that he clearly deserves neither worship nor love.

Interesting thing is that Bible says:

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

I don’t see any reason to think God needs our “worship�.

So it's your position that we don't need to worship, or revere God? Do we even need to believe that he exists? Exactly what is your position on religion? Are your ideas compatible with what's actually taught in the Bible?

And love, in Bible love God means this:

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

So, if we love God, we love our neighbor as ourselves. I don’t think it is really about God and something for God.

If we have love to offer anyone, then we don't need any God.

Love cannot come from God if it comes from us.

And if love can only come from God, then the idea that we are supposed to love anyone, including God, is a contradictory idea.

The whole scenario doesn't even make any sense at all.

If I can love my neighbor, then I don't need any God for love.

In fact, if I can love a God then I can't need any God for love because that would deny my love for God.

The whole religion is utterly absurd.

Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity work and have been tested. Yet you need for them to be wrong in order for Hebrew mythology to be true.

Babies can't possibly hate a God before they are even born. Yet you need for babies to hate God before they are born in order for Hebrew mythology to be true.

Humans can love each other on their own. Yet you need for all love to only come from God and for humans to be incapable of being the source of love in order for Hebrew mythology to be true.

In short, none of the things you need for Hebrew mythology to be true can possibly be true. Yet you continually argue for them anyway. Why?

[1213]

To pretend that Quantum Mechanics doesn't work is some serious denial.

Apparently it depends on how “Quantum Mechanics� is defined. If you think it explains how all exists, I think there is nothing to support that idea.

What leaders made themselves look bad? This was a political. The pharisees certainly didn't write the Christian Gospels. Besides if it was written by a God why would that God make himself look like such an ignorant jerk?

“Ignorant jerk� is your opinion and I have heard that opinions are not meaningful here.

Because science works. There's going back. You can't change the fact that Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity actually work. That's never going to change.

Wikipedia seems to disagree with that, because it says:

…formulation of a complete theory of quantum gravity is hindered by apparent incompatibilities between general relativity…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

So it's your position that we don't need to worship, or revere God?

I think it is the Acts 17:24-25 that says God is not served by humans.

Do we even need to believe that he exists? Exactly what is your position on religion? Are your ideas compatible with what's actually taught in the Bible?

I believe what the Bible tells. And I don’t think belief in the existence of God is the point. Bible tells eternal life is for righteous, so righteousness is the key. And it is not same as to just believe in the existence of God. According to the Bible even demons believe that God exists and I don’t think it is beneficial for them.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

If I can love my neighbor, then I don't need any God for love.

But, if you love your neighbor, then you also love God, because Bible tells that love God means you keep His commandments (which are in love your neighbor as yourself). But I am not really convinced that you love the way Bible speaks of love.

[Divine Insight]

But I am not really convinced that you love the way Bible speaks of love.

I thought you just said that opinions are not meaningful here?

To be perfectly honest with you I couldn't care less what you might be convinced of.

You need for all of science to be wrong in order for the God of the ancient Hebrews to be real.

You need for new born babies to hate God in order for the God of the ancient Hebrews to be justified.

You need for a supposedly benevolent God to turn humans into a pillar of salt when he's angry with them.

As far as I can see, your theology simply needs far more than it offers.

Not only this, but then you use your theology to accuse others of failing to live up to your God's standards, just as you did in your above quote judging me not to love as the Bible speak of love.

Well, actually you may very well be right because I wouldn't curse babies with horrible birth defects. So my love is quite different from the so-called love of the God you are attempting to defend. I can only be super happy about that.

If I had to love people the way the Biblical God loves people I would need to become a pretty nasty person.

So I say no thank you to Hebrew mythology. You can keep it all to yourself.

No sale.

[marco]

“Ignorant jerk� is your opinion and I have heard that opinions are not meaningful here.

Yes, perhaps biblical back-up is required to justify calling Yahweh a nasty name. So the plan is to make a virgin give birth …. despite the opprobrium that will cause the mother in a land where virgins do not have children.
Send a star to guide wise men? And this results in the massacre of infant children. Was this a blunder or part of a plan?
Boy vanishes and causes his parents a lot of grief. Man emerges from thirty years of carpentry and tells folk to leave their wives and kids then blunders into an execution, seen by his "afflicted mother" - followed by post mortem dispute about corpses and angels...... and farcical uncertainty.

Didn't God do well!

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 31 by 1213]

That is also interesting claim. Why would they invent God that judges them and tells how badly they act?

To serve as an explanation for various disasters. If a drought occurred, or a flood, or an earthquake, or a volcanic eruption, or their armies lost in battle, or a plague...people would have and do demand explanations. Lacking any concept of the scientific method, and being just one of many cultures that were wrapped around the concept of gods, they would have said that the various disasters and military losses were because of God. Indeed, this is what we see not just in the Bible, but also in other works. Xenophon, in the Anabasis, at one point (going on distant memory here, I last read the Anabasis well over twenty years ago as a child) is either told or himself tells that unless they pray to the right aspect of Zeus, he and his men will not have victory in battle.

Saying God has all these powers to cause disaster, and that the reason he is heaping these disasters is because of some failing of the people, would have satisfied many back in the day. After all, if they had said God would literally never cause anything bad to happen, how does that explain the floods and droughts and crop failures etc? No, obviously, they did something wrong to annoy God!