"The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."

[Zzyzx]

.
"The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what I say it means."

Many discussions in this Forum come down to or involve semantics – arguing about what the Bible ‘really says or means’

If the Bible is ‘The word of God’ as often claimed, WHY doesn’t it speak for itself – clearly, without need for argument about what it says or means?

If the Bible is NOT ‘The word of God’, but is the word of ancient writers speaking ‘for God’ and giving their opinions or stories about God and events, WHY is the Bible regarded as ‘sacred’ (or inerrant or infallible or whatever is claimed)?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Many Christians hold the view that those without God's blessing of holy spirit can understand what the bible says but only His people will be able to understand what it means.

MATTHEW 13:11-13

[Jesus] said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. ... whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it

JESUS was speaking in the common language of the people so they understood the words as would have been defined in a dictionary but what they could not get, by design, was the "sense" or true meaning the words we conveying because they were judged not to be worthy of such truths. All such ones can do it settle for a superficial grasp of words but there is no chance for them to get the "meaning" of what is really being communicated.



JW







RELATED POSTS

I want to understand the bible, what must I do?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 714#940714

Why doesn't God help people understand the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 370#940370

Why is the bible written in a way that is open to interpretation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 682#844682

[Zzyzx]

.

Many Christians hold the view that those without God's blessing of holy spirit can understand what the bible says but only His people will be able to understand what it means.

That would be an example of the logical fallacy Special Pleading -- a foolish mistake in reasoning, discussion or debate.

"Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... ading.html

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Zzyzx]

I don't think so. Saying that a mentally impaired person cannot understand simple instructions is not special pleading, it's a logical conclusion of his deficiency. Saying that a spiritually impaired person cannot understand spiritual things is the same.


REJECTS COMPLAIN

It may be selective instruction but not "special pleading" since the same rule applies to all, the rule being, if you qualify you receive the instruction.

To illustrate If one fails ones exam and not being accepted into the college of ones choice, cannot understand the advance subjects taught in the College, it wasnt a case of "special pleading" it was a case of that person's ignorance of the subject being the result of not qualifying for the course instruction.

Those that do not have God's spirit do cannot understand the deeper things of God, they are Gods rejects, they didn't "qualify" for higher education. Had they not been rejected they would be in the group offered "special instruction". That is at lease the biblical view; I didn't write these clauses in scripture so please don't shoot the messenger.

1 CORINTHIANS 2:14

But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. - New Living Translation

MATTHEW 13:11-13

[Jesus] said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. ... whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it

JW

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 3 by Zzyzx]

Saying that a spiritually impaired person cannot understand spiritual things is the same.

Not even close given the fact that there is no verifiable evidence to back up this invented "spiritual impairment."


Beyond that, there is no verifiable evidence that this thing called "God's spirit", exists. If it does, then it is quite a trickster given that those who have this unverified thing argue about the meanings of countless passages. This confusion it spreads causes major divisions over major pieces of doctrine.


It can't even provide a clear understanding of what it takes to get into the mythological heaven that some Christians love to use as a lure to get the unconverted to accept one of the many versions of Christianity.


Tcg

[Zzyzx]

.

I don't think so. Saying that a mentally impaired person cannot understand simple instructions is not special pleading, it's a logical conclusion of his deficiency. Saying that a spiritually impaired person cannot understand spiritual things is the same.

Perhaps those who declare themselves (self-anoint) to be ‘spiritually enlightened’ are the ones who are impaired -- by thinking they have ‘special knowledge’ or ‘special instructions’ when they only THINK they have something special.

A group can be deluded by ‘leaders’ into thinking they are special in some regard and superior to those who are not included in their ‘special group’. There is probably a psychological term for that sort of delusion.

It is not uncommon for religious groups / sects / cults to declare themselves ‘enlightened’ and/or superior to outsiders. They seem prone to consider all beliefs or 'spirituality' other than their own to be 'defective'.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Many Christians hold the view that those without God's blessing of holy spirit can understand what the bible says but only His people will be able to understand what it means.

MATTHEW 13:11-13

[Jesus] said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. ... whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it

JESUS was speaking in the common language of the people so they understood the words as would have been defined in a dictionary but what they could not get, by design, was the "sense" or true meaning the words we conveying because they were judged not to be worthy of such truths. All such ones can do it settle for a superficial grasp of words but there is no chance for them to get the "meaning" of what is really being communicated.



JW







RELATED POSTS

I want to understand the bible, what must I do?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 714#940714

Why doesn't God help people understand the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 370#940370

Why is the bible written in a way that is open to interpretation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 682#844682

The ability to launch the United State's arsenal of nuclear weaponry is done via a method of encryption. To the best of my understanding, the President (or someone down the line of succession in the event of him being incapacitated) gives the order in or along with a code. Officers at missile silos or on submarines then decrypt the code using a decryption key they possess.
The decryption is beyond my capability. I do not have the decrypt key. Let's say I somehow intercept the order broadcast by the president. It would be gibberish to me. However, the silo commander would be able to demonstrate his understanding of the message by being able to decrypt it and launching the nuke at the specified target.
Can Christians do anything like this? Can they demonstrate some advanced knowledge, or is it all unverified claims piled on top of other unverified claims, ad infinitum?
I read the Bible and I don't see for example...a cure for cancer. Can devout Christians read the Bible and see a cure for cancer? Replace "cure for cancer" with whatever you desire.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

It may be selective instruction but not "special pleading" since the same rule applies to all, the rule being, if you qualify you receive the instruction.

Quote:
To illustrate If one fails ones exam and not being accepted into the college of ones choice, cannot understand the advance subjects taught in the College, it wasnt a case of "special pleading" it was a case of that person's ignorance of the subject being the result of not qualifying for the course instruction.

Those that do not have God's spirit do cannot understand the deeper things of God, they are Gods rejects, they didn't "qualify" for higher education. Had they not been rejected they would be in the group offered "special instruction". That is at lease the biblical view; I didn't write these clauses in scripture so please don't shoot the messenger.

In the real world, if one fails a college exam and thus doesn't get into college, that's all on the student. I myself didn't do certain things required for courses back when I was in school and as a result, I failed those courses.
But look at what you said there. Those that do not have God's spirit. Hmm...that's something God can give, right? Why would he withhold it? To me, it's like saying hey rikuo, you ought to study for the advanced calculus exam...but I'm not going to tutor you, I'm not going to give you the textbook or any notes or any hint at all as to what's going to be in the exam. A teacher who deliberately withholds what is (according to this discussion at least) the primary/sole thing necessary to succeed at the 'exam' is a failure of a teacher.
Teachers in the real world are fired (or ought to be) if its discovered they withheld vital course material from students.

[Overcomer]

Zzyzx provided this definition of the special pleading fallacy:

"Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... leading.ht

JehovahsWitness wrote:

Many Christians hold the view that those without God's blessing of holy spirit can understand what the bible says but only His people will be able to understand what it means.

Zzyzx responded:

That would be an example of the logical fallacy Special Pleading -- a foolish mistake in reasoning, discussion or debate.

However, I don't think Jehovah's Witness was committing the fallacy in that he was not applying rules, standards, etc. to others while making himself exempt from said rules. The source cited by Zzyzx offers several examples including this one:

1.Barbara accepts that all murderers should be punished for their crimes.

2.Although she murdered Bill, Barbara claims she is an exception because she really would not like going to prison.

3.Therefore, the standard of punishing murderers should not be applied to her.


When I say that help from the Holy Spirit is needed for a full understanding of Scripture, I don't see that as special pleading. I am not saying this applies to everybody else but me. If I said that help from the author of an article or book is needed for a full understanding of that article or book, would you call that special pleading? I wouldn't. I call that simple common sense.

Look at Scripture this way: It's inspired by the Holy Spirit which, ultimately, makes him the author working through a variety of writers. The Bible consists of many different genres including history, letters, biography, prophecy and poetry. All genres have a different set of rules by which one can understand them. We do not attempt to understand poetry (in or outside the Bible) using the same rules we do for a historical document such as The Federalist Papers, for example. If someone wants to understand the Bible, one has to study to do so just as one studies to learn how to understand secular history, poetry, biography, etc. Genre dictates analysis. It is the failure of some people to do adequate study that frustrates many Christians.

There's a terrific book by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart that I always recommend. It's called Reading The Bible For All Its Worth. It discusses basic rules of exegesis in layman's terms for anybody to understand.

Certainly, people can understand what the Bible says to a certain extent through study apart from the Holy Spirit. But as Jehovah's Witness rightly points out, the Bible has to be understood at a spiritual level and that can come only through the Holy Spirit.

So how does one get the Holy Spirit? One accepts Christ as Lord and Saviour, acknowledging his death and resurrection for the atonement of the sins of humankind. That is the one and only requirement. People who reject God, who malign him, who hate him as so many atheists here seem to do, cannot expect guidance from him. Indeed, they don't seem to want it as they indicate over and over again that they can make do without his help in every area of life including reading the Bible. Therefore, it's on the individual if he or she isn't hearing from the Lord and isn't receiving help from the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible on a spiritual level. There is no onus on God to respond to those who hate the very idea of him. He has already made his existence evident in nature and in the human conscience so they are without excuse as they have chosen to harden their hearts to him and to suppress knowledge of him. See Romans 1.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 9 by Overcomer]

When I say that help from the Holy Spirit is needed for a full understanding of Scripture, I don't see that as special pleading. I am not saying this applies to everybody else but me. If I said that help from the author of an article or book is needed for a full understanding of that article or book, would you call that special pleading? I wouldn't. I call that simple common sense.

It is special pleading in that the claim itself, (the need for the Holy Spirit) is something understood only by those who claim to have it and thus not by people such as myself or Z.
Christians such as yourself understand (or claim to) the Bible by claiming to have the Holy Spirit, and that conversely people like myself or Z do not understand the Bible and do not have the Holy Spirit. The special pleading is the apparent requirement of the Holy Spirit in the first place - since I am an atheist skeptic, I apparently don't have the Holy Spirit (to the best of my knowledge and understanding, I don't) and apparently without the Holy Spirit, I can't understand the requirement for the Holy Spirit.
I know what I wrote may sound a bit convoluted but think of it like this - entry into an exclusive club is predicated upon one thing. This one thing is described in the language of Swahili. You are not a Swahili speaker. You do not understand what the requirement is, or why it's only spoken of in Swahili and not in your native English. A person who claims to be an established club member mentions the requirement but says to you (in English) that unless you are fluent in Swahili, you cannot understand the requirement.
Why should you believe the man's claim that there even is a special requirement in the first place? That it can only be spoken of in Swahili?