Was Paul a Trinitarian?

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Elijah John
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Was Paul a Trinitarian?

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Was Paul a Trinitarian?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: The development of the Trinity concept.

Post #21

Post by polonius »

Checkpoint[/url]"]

[Replying to post 19 by polonius]
Acts of the Apostles chapter 2, Peter speaking about 80 AD.
No, Peter spoke those words about 33 or 34 AD, on the Day of Pentecost.
RESPONSE:

Sorry, We have no idea about what Peter "said" or was supposed to have said in 33 or 34 AD.
"22 'Men of Israel, listen to what I am going to say: Jesus the Nazarene was a man commended to you by God by the miracles and portents and signs that God worked through him when he was among you, as you know.

23 This man, who was put into your power by the deliberate intention and foreknowledge of God, you took and had crucified and killed by men outside the Law.

24 But God raised him to life, freeing him from the pangs of Hades; for it was impossible for him to be held in its power since,

Acts of the Apostles was written by a non-witness ("Luke" in about 80 AD) to make converts.

http://usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Luke&ch=

From an Introduction to the Gospel of Luke, New American Bible

“Early Christian tradition, from the late second century on, identifies the author of this gospel and of the Acts of the Apostles as Luke, a Syrian from Antioch, who is mentioned in the New Testament in Col 4:14, Phlm 24 and 2 Tm 4:11. The prologue of the gospel makes it clear that Luke is not part of the first generation of Christian disciples but is himself dependent upon the traditions he received from those who were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word (Lk 1:2).

May I conclude that you are a fundamentalist and not a historian?

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Re: The development of the Trinity concept.

Post #22

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 21 by polonius]
We have no idea about what Peter "said" or was supposed to have said in 33 or 34 AD.
Thank you, that's all I need to know.

Thanks too for quoting what he did say at that time so soon after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

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Re: The development of the Trinity concept.

Post #23

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 21 by polonius]
May I conclude that you are a fundamentalist and not a historian?
You may.

May I conclude that you are an unbeliever and a skeptic, and not a historian?

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Re: The development of the Trinity concept.

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

polonius wrote:
polonius wrote:
Tigger 2 asked:
So what is your source for Christians claiming Jesus to be divine (Binitarianism) in 82/83 A.D.?
RESPONSE:

[1] Written by Luke c. 80 AD, Supposedly spoken my Peter

"You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know

The widely held view that Jesus was special in some way but not divine himself was condemned in 325 AD by the Council of Nicea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[b]Binitarianism
[/b]
“ Hurtado's view might be interpreted as [2] urging that, at this stage in the development of the Church's understanding, it could be said that God is a person (the Father) and one being; and that Jesus is distinct from the Father, was pre-existent with God, and also originating from God without becoming a being separate from him, so that he is God (the Son). This view of a binitarian pattern of devotion would posit a unity of God's being and a oneness of the object of worship, which is sympathetic to its predecessor view in Judaism; and it also displays a plurality of simultaneous identities, which is sympathetic to its successor in trinitarianism. It is a development in understanding of Christ, in other words, from which arose several subsequent ones in the further course of development that eventually came into conflict with one another.


http://explorefaith.org/faq/church/judaism.html


[3]“As the Jesus Movement spread and came into contact with other influences, such as Greek philosophy and Roman cultural centers outside Judea and Syria, the movement felt a growing need to differentiate itself from other religions and philosophies. They did so in the time-honored practice of declaring their views true and other views false. At the same time, Rome was engaged in ruthlessly repressing Jewish revolts. Some Jesus people interpreted those devastating attacks as further signs of their rightness.�

https://forums.catholic.com/t/when-did- ... ism/425637

[4]Most scholars and historians say that Christianity began as a sect and renewal movement within Judaism and that for the first few decades Christianity wasn’t seen as totally distinct from Judaism. The Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D) was the basis for the split between Judaism and Christianity, but that the break finally came in between a 60 year period from 70 A.D (destruction of the Second Temple) and 132 A.D (Bar Kokhba revolt).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

[5]“The writing of the benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia which was inserted in the "Eighteen Benedictions" as the 19th blessing in the silent prayer to be said thrice daily, the Amidah. The benediction is thus seen as related to the Pharisees, the development of the Hebrew Bible canon, the split of early Christianity and Judaism as heresy in Judaism, the origins of Rabbinic Judaism, origins of Christianity, Christianity in the 1st century, and the history of early Christianity.�
"Two medieval Cairo Genizah copies include references to both minim and Notzrim("Nazarenes", i.e. "Christians").[7][8][9]

The "Third" member of the Trinity was added by the Council of Constance in about 380 A.D.

[6]Acts of the Apostles chapter 2, Peter speaking about 80 AD.

"This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.

But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it.l

NB. Jesus is not divine and "raised" by God, that is, did not"rise" by his own power.
NUMBRRS added by myself for clarity






IS any of the above supposed to support the idea that first century Christians believed Jesus to be "divine" as in the sense equal to and himself, Almighty God (Binitarianism)?

[1] A statement that Luke arguably writing in 80 CE, indicates that the first century Christians did not view Jesus as "divine" in the above sense.

[2] A comment on interpretation of the writings of New Testament scholar Larry W. Hurtado on the subject of bintariasm, with no dating or reference to date.

[3] Statement that first century Jews rejected Christian teachings as false

[4] A Statement that first century Christianity supposedly "split" from Judaism in 50 CE

[5] A reference to the highly debated so called Council of Jamnia, where Hebrew not Christian scholars gathered to discuss the contents of the Hebrew canon.

[6] A statemrnt that the dogma of the trinity was concretized by the 4th century CE .

[6] A quotation of Peters speech at Pentecost in which he states that God raised Jesus from the dead.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The development of the Trinity concept.

Post #25

Post by polonius »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 21 by polonius]
May I conclude that you are a fundamentalist and not a historian?
You may.

May I conclude that you are an unbeliever and a skeptic, and not a historian?
RESPONSE: No. Believer in the facts of history. Skeptical regarding fundamentalism when it isn't supported by evidence..

polonius
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Re: The development of the Trinity concept.

Post #26

Post by polonius »

[Replying to post 24 by JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Thank you for the rather lengthy presentation of your views. :-s

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Re: The development of the Trinity concept.

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

polonius wrote: [Replying to post 24 by JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Thank you for the rather lengthy presentation of your views. :-s
Your most welcome. Do you feel inclined to answer my question?

Your Post
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 692#964692



My question...


IS any of the above supposed to support the idea that first century Christians believed Jesus to be "divine" as in the sense equal to and himself, Almighty God (Binitarianism)?

JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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One of JW's claims

Post #28

Post by polonius »

JW post (among many things that )
Lets answer one at a time.
My question...


Quote:

IS any of the above supposed to support the idea that first century Christians believed Jesus to be "divine" as in the sense equal to and himself, Almighty God (Binitarianism)?
RESPONSE:
John 20:25-28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.� But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.�
26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.� 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.� 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!�

To be continued (one JW question at a time}

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Re: One of JW's claims

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 28 by polonius]

My question was regard to your post #19; I cannot see any reference to John 20:25-28 in that post.


Your post
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 692#964692


My question...


IS any of the above supposed to support the idea that first century Christians believed Jesus to be "divine" as in the sense equal to and himself, Almighty God (Binitarianism)?

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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What did Larry W. Hurtado really say?

Post #30

Post by polonius »

JW posted:
[2] A comment on interpretation of the writings of New Testament scholar Larry W. Hurtado on the subject of bintariasm, with no dating or reference to date.


RESPONSE:

Hurtado LW. Lord Jesus Christ, Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity. William B. Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, 2003, pp. 52-53.


Interestingly, his book, (which at least one University of Notre Dame scholar calls "A fantastic work! Larry Hurtado has written what may well prove to be one of the more important works on Jesus in this generation"), demonstrates that there was a binitarian view in Christianity that can be proven from the early first century (from about the time of Christ's death) and that Professor Hurtado concludes that the trinitarian view came to be dominant later (Ibid, p.651).

Binitarian from about the time of Jesus death.

Name dropping rather than quoting what the writer actually said sometimes backfires, doesn't it. ;)

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