Question for Theists / Apologists / Christians

[Zzyzx]

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“Wouldn’t it be easier and more logical to forego reasoning altogether and instead live out your life steeped in religious faith in the hope of eternal life after death?� (Vitaly Malkin “Dangerous Illusions�).

Earthly life is only an eye-blink compared to eternity. So, isn’t a purely / exclusively / ascetic religious life the only rational way to live if one actually believes and trusts the eternity promise?

[Zzyzx]

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The promised eternity is a LONG time (infinite, in fact) – why risk it by living for anything other than religion – IF you believe the promise?

By way of example; if offered uninterrupted bliss for a lifetime in exchange for one day of pure prayer and devotion, wouldn’t you be willing to live for a day the life of an ascetic monk (praying constantly, singing hymns, reading scripture, confessing any minor transgressions, asking forgiveness – foregoing tasty meals, gluttony, sex, sloth, envy, gossip, etc) for one day – if you truly believed the promise?

Only a fool would decline the offer of lifetime bliss in exchange for a day of devotion – IF they believed the offer. Likewise, it seems as though a life of nothing but religion would be a sure bet for those who truly believe the promise of eternal bliss.

�IF they believed� is the key term. If we don’t believe the offer we won’t take the deal. Perhaps some would try to half-way take the deal (keep tasty meals, gluttony, sex, sloth, gossip, etc – and acting as though they ‘truly believed’) rather than totally devoting life to religion to ensure their eternity beyond question – and take their chances.

This is not to suggest that Christianity requires ascetic life for ‘salvation’ BUT it would be the most rational course of action / way of life to ensure the ‘eternity of bliss’. Why take ANY chances with eternity at stake? �IF you truly believe�?

You do truly believe, don't you?

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I can't see this applying to theists generally, many of whom have little or no reason to believe in heaven to begin with, let alone specific ascetic requirements for getting there. But it seems quite similar to Jesus' parable of the hidden treasure and buried pearl.

• Matthew 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls; 46 on finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it."

It's not simply a "just in case" scenario, Jesus is very explicit and insistent about giving up everything for the kingdom of God: Again and again throughout the gospels he says that his followers should not lay up earthly treasures, serve God alone (not money), trust in Him for their daily bread, forsake everything to follow him, sell their possessions to give to the poor and stop working for food that perishes but instead for food eternal.

Most Christians, it seems, do not really believe in Jesus. In fact according to Matthew 6, by trying to work for money as well as God, supposedly they will end up despising God.

[Mithrae]

Apparently no Christians are willing or able to answer this question They can hardly claim that it's irrelevant or some kind of strawman (see post #3) so, while some simply may not have glanced at the thread, it seems that for the most part we must conclude that Christians on this forum don't really believe in anything bigger or better than this life. And that's okay: There's a lot to be said for this life, including the joy and satisfaction of love for one another and helping those less fortunate. With or without an afterlife Christianity may well be a nice religion for people to indulge in, maybe even better than most secular alternatives

[Zzyzx]

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Apparently no Christians are willing or able to answer this question

It seems as though straight-forward questions that cannot be 'answered' with semantics, word salads, and distractions are not very popular among Apologists.

I can't imagine why.

Could it be that, "Earthly life is only an eye-blink compared to eternity. So, isn’t a purely / exclusively / ascetic religious life the only rational way to live if one actually believes and trusts the eternity promise?" illustrates too clearly that very few walk the talk.

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 2 by Zzyzx]

The promised eternity is a LONG time (infinite, in fact) – why risk it by living for anything other than religion – IF you believe the promise?

By way of example; if offered uninterrupted bliss for a lifetime in exchange for one day of pure prayer and devotion, wouldn’t you be willing to live for a day the life of an ascetic monk (praying constantly, singing hymns, reading scripture, confessing any minor transgressions, asking forgiveness – foregoing tasty meals, gluttony, sex, sloth, envy, gossip, etc) for one day – if you truly believed the promise?

Only a fool would decline the offer of lifetime bliss in exchange for a day of devotion – IF they believed the offer. Likewise, it seems as though a life of nothing but religion would be a sure bet for those who truly believe the promise of eternal bliss.

�IF they believed� is the key term. If we don’t believe the offer we won’t take the deal. Perhaps some would try to half-way take the deal (keep tasty meals, gluttony, sex, sloth, gossip, etc – and acting as though they ‘truly believed’) rather than totally devoting life to religion to ensure their eternity beyond question – and take their chances.

This is not to suggest that Christianity requires ascetic life for ‘salvation’ BUT it would be the most rational course of action / way of life to ensure the ‘eternity of bliss’. Why take ANY chances with eternity at stake? �IF you truly believe�?

In other words walking the talk.
Don't see much of that these days. I venture to say that 0.000000000000000001%
of supposed Christians will be seeing the walls of heaven. How many are looking for eternal glory but are so fearful of dying tomorrow?


It's as easy as being an ascetic, but how many are going to exchange their lives for endless scriptural incantation do this, not that, whether it even means a gnat's whisker in the scheme of everything?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 6 by 2Dbunk]

I do not fault anyone for deciding against living an ascetic life because it seems like a foolish waste of a lifetime.

However, I DO fault those who claim superiority (or 'chosen' or 'saved') by virtue of 'following the Bible' when they do NOT follow the Bible except when convenient. No need to 'love thy neighbor' (and enemy) if one is 'forgiven' for trespass. No need to avoid Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride -- but don't let the congregation know. Pretend to be pious.

[Jagella]

“Wouldn’t it be easier and more logical to forego reasoning altogether and instead live out your life steeped in religious faith in the hope of eternal life after death?� (Vitaly Malkin “Dangerous Illusions�).

Christians may use what they call reason to impress unbelievers who may not be impressed with faith.

Earthly life is only an eye-blink compared to eternity. So, isn’t a purely / exclusively / ascetic religious life the only rational way to live if one actually believes and trusts the eternity promise?

If you're very sure that heaven is real, then yes, it makes sense to be an ascetic which is what the gospel tells believers to do. On the other hand if you're not so sure about Christian salvation, then indulge in earthly pleasures like sex and wealth just in case.

Now, what do most Christians do? Devote their whole lives to the gospel or have sex and accumulate wealth?

[tam]

Peace to you!

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“Wouldn’t it be easier and more logical to forego reasoning altogether and instead live out your life steeped in religious faith in the hope of eternal life after death?� (Vitaly Malkin “Dangerous Illusions�).

That seems to be quite the loaded question. Why would anyone have to forego reasoning in order to live their life in faith?

(I will forgo the word 'religion' because faith and religion are not the same thing. So when I respond to your question, I am responding as a person of faith. I am no part of religion.)

Earthly life is only an eye-blink compared to eternity. So, isn’t a purely / exclusively / ascetic religious life the only rational way to live if one actually believes and trusts the eternity promise?

If an "ascetic" life (whatever you mean by that) is what Christ said one must live, in order to receive eternal life, then sure, that would be the only rational way to live... but that is not what Christ taught.



Christ came to set people free, not to bind them down with unnecessary rules and burdens. If some are called or choose to live an "ascetic life" then so be it, that is between them and their Lord. But that does not mean everyone must do the same... and that too is between them and their Lord.



It is religion that most often burdens people with heavy loads and many rules.


My Lord does not place heavy burdens upon people; His yoke is light.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.� Matthew 11:28-30

We need only to believe in the Son to 'not perish but have eternal life'. Of course believing in Him is more than just believing in His (and His Father's) existence. IF we truly believe in Him, then we will believe what He says as well. And if we love Him, we will remain in HIS word and obey HIS commands (John 14:23). If we are indeed in Christ, then His blood covers us (and we have forgiveness in Him when we err).


Christ never once said that a person is made perfect by their ascetic life. Instead He told us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, and we are made perfect in that way by loving our enemies:


But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


And from the passage in Luke,


“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.



An ascetic life does not cover over a multitude of sins. But love does cover over a multitude of sins. (1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12)



One would be better served learning from Christ, listening to and following Him, learning and showing love as He teaches us... rather than living some kind of "ascetic life" that Christ did not teach.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Jagella]

Why would anyone have to forego reasoning in order to live their life in faith?

Many people may have difficulty finding reasons to believe the religious claims they want to believe or even more difficult, know of reasons to doubt those claims. If such people want to keep their faith, then they must forego reason. On the other hand if people do find sufficient reason to believe those claims, then there is no need for faith.

(I will forgo the word 'religion' because faith and religion are not the same thing. So when I respond to your question, I am responding as a person of faith. I am no part of religion.)

In what way do you define the words differently?

If an "ascetic" life (whatever you mean by that)...

"Ascetic" describes a lifestyle in which various pleasures are given up often for the purpose of eventually attaining some kind of reward promised by religion.

... but that is not what Christ taught.

Based on the New Testament, Catholic priests, monks, and nuns give up some earthly pleasures hoping it will make them more likely to go to heaven.

Christ never once said that a person is made perfect by their ascetic life.

I disagree. We read in Matthew 19:21 (NRSV):

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.�

We can see that what Jesus is quoted as saying here fits perfectly my definition of asceticism. Jesus advises the young man to give up his wealth to attain heaven. That's an ascetic lifestyle that Jesus is advising.

One would be better served learning from Christ, listening to and following Him, learning and showing love as He teaches us... rather than living some kind of "ascetic life" that Christ did not teach.

Based on what I've read in the gospel, Jesus did preach that we give up our possessions to get our "treasure in heaven."