It seems that theists are unaware of their burden

[2Dbunk]

In a concurrent thread in this C & A, Tam quotes scripture to support her assertion that Jesus came to us to lighten our load.

TAM says:

My Lord does not place heavy burdens upon people; His yoke is light.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.� Matthew 11:28-30

I respond: how can one walk away from their Mother and father; their friends and family; give away all one's resources to the poor; resign away all reason in worldly things (science, medicine, economy, intimate love or whatever secular interests one might have); and REASON itself which may seek other answers about why we are here? The last puts an extreme burden on those many that have some doubts; and those of other religions who are faithful to their own deity; to the threat of everlasting death and torture by fire.


Is that called "lightening our load?" I can see someone with a room temperature IQ signing onto such a program, and they would be relieved that they will be provided for in heaven. But for those who are grateful for their ability to think, it is a slap in the face and certainly a worry to be reckoned with.


Theists how do you see my thought?

[2ndRateMind]

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All you need to do is believe in Jesus' saving grace. There is no work for you to do. If there is no work to do then that is a light burden indeed.

What a concept. It should be easy to sell to non-believers.

"Just believe what you do not believe, nothing else required, and you will be rewarded after you die."

No way to determine if the offer is legitimate.

No returning dissatisfied customers.

My own thinking is that Jesus here was talking about virtue. And virtue is said to be its own reward. Certainly it is a light burden, if a burden at all, since all the virtuous want is the opportunity and capacity to express that virtue.

Of course, if one is not virtuous, being forced to be so might be a very heavy burden indeed. But, I'm inclined to think that is just tough cookies; societies cannot exist without virtue, and all that is required of the vice-fuelled complainers is to change their attitude, for the common good.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Zzyzx]

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My own thinking is that Jesus here was talking about virtue.

According to Christian beliefs is 'virtue' alone enough to gain 'salvation'?

Is there a way to determine if the offer ('salvation' after you die) is legitimate? Or is that another 'take my word for it, or his, or this book'?

[2ndRateMind]

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My own thinking is that Jesus here was talking about virtue.

According to Christian beliefs is 'virtue' alone enough to gain 'salvation'?

I don't really care. Given the grace of God, which is freely distributed to those that want it, it just seems to me to be the case that salvation, whether in this life or (extrapolating) the next, is all about the way one is, one's degree of virtue, rather than the theologies and philosophies that led one to be that way.

Is there a way to determine if the offer ('salvation' after you die) is legitimate? Or is that another 'take my word for it, or his, or this book'?

I don't think so. At some point, one must be informed by one's faith, rather than defined by one's certainties. All I can vouch for is that since I came to be a Christian, I have not been living on earth so much as inhabiting heaven on earth.

Best wishes, 2RM

[1213]

...I respond: how can one walk away from their Mother and father; their friends and family; give away all one's resources to the poor; resign away all reason in worldly things (science, medicine, economy, intimate love or whatever secular interests one might have); and REASON itself which may seek other answers about why we are here? The last puts an extreme burden on those many that have some doubts; and those of other religions who are faithful to their own deity; to the threat of everlasting death and torture by fire.

Firstly, Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. Unrighteous don’t live forever. That is the key to life, not beliefs.

And about the burden. In Biblical point of view this world is not meant to last forever. If you try to save it, you fail anyway. But in Biblical point of view, true life is with God. When your focus is on meaningful matters, material worries are not burden for you anymore.

And other people, Bible and Jesus encourages to love all, not just them that are useful for you. If you love someone just because he happens to be your relative, it is not very good.

For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matt. 5:46-48

He said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

[Wootah]

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All you need to do is believe in Jesus' saving grace. There is no work for you to do. If there is no work to do then that is a light burden indeed.

What a concept. It should be easy to sell to non-believers.

"Just believe what you do not believe, nothing else required, and you will be rewarded after you die."

No way to determine if the offer is legitimate.

No returning dissatisfied customers.

Those are secondary objections. Indeed easy believism is a problem in Christianity.

But compared to other monotheist religions (if we grant they are all paths to God) it is a lighter burden than them. Nothing to do is less than all the rules to follow.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 11 by 2ndRateMind]

Do you think being virtuous is a ligbt burden? If it was then I would expect more virtuous people. Being virtuous is a constant struggle between what is right and what we want.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 11 by 2ndRateMind]

Do you think being virtuous is a ligbt burden? If it was then I would expect more virtuous people. Being virtuous is a constant struggle between what is right and what we want.

I dare say. But I have an optimistic view of the world, and of human nature. I actually think there are, among us little people, countless random acts of kindness, that may go unnoticed by the rich and powerful, but act as the social glue that keeps societies together. Among such little people, the struggle between what is right and what they want is resolved by virtue, because they want what is right.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Tcg]

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All you need to do is believe in Jesus' saving grace. There is no work for you to do. If there is no work to do then that is a light burden indeed.

What a concept. It should be easy to sell to non-believers.

"Just believe what you do not believe, nothing else required, and you will be rewarded after you die."

No way to determine if the offer is legitimate.

No returning dissatisfied customers.

Those are secondary objections.

Only to those who determine the truth of claims solely on their emotional response to unverifiable claims. For those who refuse to accept unverifiable claims, these are primary objections.

Indeed easy believism is a problem in Christianity.

How does easy believism vary from your unverified claim that, "All you need to do is believe in Jesus' saving grace."

But compared to other monotheist religions (if we grant they are all paths to God)…

Why should we grant that? I've seen no reason presented to believe that there is a God for any of these religions to provide a path to.


Tcg

[bjs]

What a concept. It should be easy to sell to non-believers.

"Just believe what you do not believe, nothing else required, and you will be rewarded after you die."

No way to determine if the offer is legitimate.

No returning dissatisfied customers.

Isn’t that pretty much life? You make a choice about how you will live, and then you live that way. There is no return for dissatisfied customers. There is no way to determine if any path will really take you where you want to go, or if you will want to be there once you arrive. We all have to consider where a given road promises to take us, make a choice and accept that there is no money-back-guarantee.

[Zzyzx]

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All you need to do is believe in Jesus' saving grace. There is no work for you to do. If there is no work to do then that is a light burden indeed.

What a concept. It should be easy to sell to non-believers.

"Just believe what you do not believe, nothing else required, and you will be rewarded after you die."

No way to determine if the offer is legitimate.

No returning dissatisfied customers.

Isn’t that pretty much life?

Is this to say that ‘believing what you do not believe’ is ‘pretty much life’?

If so, I disagree.

You make a choice about how you will live, and then you live that way.

What has that to do with ‘believe in Jesus' saving grace’?

There is no return for dissatisfied customers.

In real life the ‘rewards’ or ‘punishments’ occur in the real world – not in some promised ‘afterlife’. Those who discover that promises were false can raise objections publicly or legally while they are alive. No so for promises of what is to happen 'after you are dead'.

There is no way to determine if any path will really take you where you want to go, or if you will want to be there once you arrive.

Agreed. However, astute people can often or usually make mid-course corrections in the real world.

We all have to consider where a given road promises to take us, make a choice

We would be well advised to determine if the promises are truthful and accurate. We can then compare alternatives.

An example from personal history: As a graduate student in Earth science and geology during the 1960s many attractive opportunities were presented. Among them, I chose university professor (for the promised benefits / advantages); which turned out to be a very satisfactory choice. Today, however, the once-grand promises are no longer true – and I would NOT pursue that career under present conditions (even if the promises made were largely unaltered)

and accept that there is no money-back-guarantee.

In spite of no guarantees, we can each learn to evaluate alternatives and verify claims or promises made in order to make informed choices. We cannot verify the promise of rewards in a proposed ‘afterlife’ and the payoff is supposed to occur ‘after you die’. We can verify the merits of becoming a professor – that information is available.