Many claim that Christ still has a direct influence on them today. They are perhaps influenced by John 6:37, “He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.� But he led those that followed him into torture and death; he could not save himself, and found no words to defend himself against the charges brought. He advocated tolerance and peace then lost his temper in the temple. He did not write anything that can be analysed, but leaving it to those that didn't know him he entrusted himself to rumour.
Is it Christ who has influence today, or the multi-national religions that built churches on his bones?
And is the personal Christ who whispers in the night nothing more than the sober voice of conscience and hope? Does it matter?
Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Moderator: Moderators
- Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9187
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 188 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by marco]
Jesus totally changed my life but I've never heard Him speak outside of the Bible. I dont think there is a person on this forum that wouldnt experience profound change if they only followed.
Sometimes I just want to apologise for not knowong enough apologetics but you really can't understand water without getting wet.
Go watch Johnathan Pageau I think he will picque your mind.
Jesus totally changed my life but I've never heard Him speak outside of the Bible. I dont think there is a person on this forum that wouldnt experience profound change if they only followed.
Sometimes I just want to apologise for not knowong enough apologetics but you really can't understand water without getting wet.
Go watch Johnathan Pageau I think he will picque your mind.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #3Hi Wootah - thanks for the comment. I'm not sure we need to take a bath to understand water nor do we need to talk to Hamlet to understand Hamlet. We are sometimes seduced by the delicious chocolate of our dreams and hopes.Wootah wrote:
Jesus totally changed my life but I've never heard Him speak outside of the Bible. I don't think there is a person on this forum that wouldn't experience profound change if they only followed.
Sometimes I just want to apologise for not knowing enough apologetics but you really can't understand water without getting wet.
Go watch Johnathan Pageau I think he will picque your mind.
I looked at Jonathan and was sad to learn of his flooding misfortune. For what it is worth it meant he gained a little from Marco. He sounds a nice person.
- ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #4marco wrote:he could not save himself,
Quaint strawman pov: He came to die...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
-
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #5Then why didn't Jesus announce that fact at the beginning of his ministry? Why didn't he say anything to the effect of "blessed are those who believe in my blood, for their sins will be paid for"?
Or "Good news, I have come to die in order to pay for your sins!" ?
No, instead Jesus preached the Kingdom, and God as merciful Father. And Jesus taught that God favored the outcast and downtrodden. And Jesus, like all prophets, preached repentance.
The blood/ransom theology seems to have been an afterthought, or a revision. An attempt to make sense of Jesus unexpected martyrdom so he would not be just another failed Messiah.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
- ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #6Elijah John wrote:Then why didn't Jesus announce that fact at the beginning of his ministry? Why didn't he say anything to the effect of "blessed are those who believe in my blood, for their sins will be paid for"?
Or "Good news, I have come to die in order to pay for your sins!" ?
For those with ears:
Jn 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
...
17 The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.�
19 Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message.
For those without ears: 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?�
He made His claims - HE left it to others to explain them.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
-
- Guru
- Posts: 2397
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:52 pm
- Location: real world
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 50 times
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #7[Replying to post 1 by marco]
Next, those who did write about him, were so successful, that this man who was crucified, has become the most well known name in the history of the world, some 2000 years later, to the point these writers have consumed your life.
One thing we have established, and demonstrated is the fact that this Christ, has certainly had an "influence" on you, to the point he has consumed the better part of your life.Many claim that Christ still has a direct influence on them today.
Well, I think that, with all the rest the Apostles have accomplished, has consumed you for the most part.They are perhaps influenced by John 6:37, “He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.�
And yet, you continue to be consumed by such a one?But he led those that followed him into torture and death; he could not save himself, and found no words to defend himself against the charges brought.
Oh yeah? I forgot about that. He must not have been the Christ, after all???He advocated tolerance and peace then lost his temper in the temple.
Can you demonstrate that those who wrote about him, "didn't know him?" Well, no you cannot!He did not write anything that can be analysed, but leaving it to those that didn't know him he entrusted himself to rumour.
Next, those who did write about him, were so successful, that this man who was crucified, has become the most well known name in the history of the world, some 2000 years later, to the point these writers have consumed your life.
I don't know, but since you seem to have all the answers, why don't you tell us exactly what it is about this story that consumes so much of your thinking?Is it Christ who has influence today, or the multi-national religions that built churches on his bones?
When you go to sleep tonight, and you hear such a "whisper" just turn over and try to go on to sleep. If these "whispers" continue, you might want to check around and determine the source. If cannot find a source, you may want to seek out help about the matter. Seriously!And is the personal Christ who whispers in the night nothing more than the sober voice of conscience and hope? Does it matter?
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #8We differ in our ideas of what a strawman argument is. Because he did not or could not save himself, it is possible to conclude he didn't want to, but it is equally possible to observe that he failed to defend his position and was executed. At the least one would have expected him -if he had right on his side -to demonstrate this unambiguously. He didn't. Instead he observed he had a few thousand militia in the angel corps but he wasn't going to deploy them.
"He came to die" is a theory. He came to pass on some message and died in the attempt.
Last edited by marco on Mon May 27, 2019 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #9[Replying to post 7 by Realworldjack]
I am interested in many things and since this is a forum that deals largely with Christ, I feel I have to express a view on that subject rather than discuss young Rimbaud's poetic achievements or Pushkin's lyricism, Wellington's commendation of the fields of Eton or Henry's final words about "monks."
I can appreciate that you want to defend the Lord, given his refusal to write a single word and so save us the trouble of guessing his intentions.
But the question is simple: is this phenomenon we are discussing a vast rumour spread by Churchmen with a vested interest in preserving their positions? Or was the humble Jesus a god in disguise? That's a more interesting question than Marco's psychology surely.
I am interested in many things and since this is a forum that deals largely with Christ, I feel I have to express a view on that subject rather than discuss young Rimbaud's poetic achievements or Pushkin's lyricism, Wellington's commendation of the fields of Eton or Henry's final words about "monks."
I can appreciate that you want to defend the Lord, given his refusal to write a single word and so save us the trouble of guessing his intentions.
But the question is simple: is this phenomenon we are discussing a vast rumour spread by Churchmen with a vested interest in preserving their positions? Or was the humble Jesus a god in disguise? That's a more interesting question than Marco's psychology surely.
- Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8494
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2147 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Re: Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?
Post #10Wootah wrote:
I dont think there is a person on this forum that wouldnt experience profound change if they only followed.
I don't think there is a person on this forum that wouldn't experience profound change if they only stopped following. Change of course shows nothing other than that change changes things. It's not a terribly profound claim.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom