How can the son of David also be his Lord?

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Checkpoint
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How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

Perhaps you can solve the conundrum Jesus put to the Pharisees that completely stumped them?

Matthew 22:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?�

“The son of David,� they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44  ‘YHVH said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.� ’

45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?�

46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
The Pharisees couldn't come up with any answer.

How about you?

What do you think?

How would you answer him?

brianbbs67
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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #2

Post by brianbbs67 »

Checkpoint wrote: Perhaps you can solve the conundrum Jesus put to the Pharisees that completely stumped them?

Matthew 22:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?�

“The son of David,� they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44  ‘YHVH said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.� ’

45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?�

46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
The Pharisees couldn't come up with any answer.

How about you?

What do you think?

How would you answer him?
Psalm 110. Often disputed. But, David would call the Messiah, lord. Descendant included. The Jps Tanakh does a neat job of capitalizing or not the You and your after that statement. I don't think they even knew what they did but they did it.

Elijah John
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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote: Perhaps you can solve the conundrum Jesus put to the Pharisees that completely stumped them?

Matthew 22:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?�

“The son of David,� they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44  ‘YHVH said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.� ’

45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?�

46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
The Pharisees couldn't come up with any answer.

How about you?

What do you think?

How would you answer him?
I would say that the Pslam was mistakenly attributed to David. The LORD, is YHVH, the Psalmists "Lord" is David, not Jesus, not the Messiah.

So "the LORD (YHVH) said to my Lord (King David)…"

The fact that Matthew's Jesus thought the second "Lord" referred to himself would not be the first time he was mistaken. (see Matthew 16.28).

Or if not Jesus, it may well have been Matthew who was mistaken, and put those words (as well as Matthew 16.28) on Jesus lips.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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tam
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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #4

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

Christ explains it himself:

I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star. Rev 22:16


The root: Christ is before David (obviously, since He is also before Abraham), and David calls Christ, Lord.

The offspring: His human descent is after David.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

So, to clarify you propose that ...

The writer of the Psalm, who clearly identified it to be a Psalm of David, mistaken.

The gospel writer Matthew mistaken.

And (possibly) Jesus himself mistaken.
But you... not mistaken.

Does that about sum up your point?


Jesus asked them, ...."If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?� - THE BIBLE



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

Not saying that the writer of the Psalm was mistaken. But that the attribution to King David of that Psalm is likely erroneous.

Yes, of course I could be mistaken. And so could Jesus. And he was, (Matthew 16.28) or if not Jesus, Matthew was.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Checkpoint
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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #7

Post by Checkpoint »

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

Not saying that the writer of the Psalm was mistaken. But that the attribution to King David of that Psalm is likely erroneous.

Yes, of course I could be mistaken. And so could Jesus. And he was, (Matthew 16.28) or if not Jesus, Matthew was.
Yeah right.

In view of what you claim, how would you answer Jesus?

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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #8

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 4 by tam]

Many would be surprised at the Greek and KJ translation of "Morning star". One of many errors given by Jerome(although in his time it was the language), it had not the negative connotation it does now in its current English rendering of lucifer. And no, I am not saying Christ is lucifer, I am saying, look beyond your nose.

Elijah John
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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #9

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

Not saying that the writer of the Psalm was mistaken. But that the attribution to King David of that Psalm is likely erroneous.

Yes, of course I could be mistaken. And so could Jesus. And he was, (Matthew 16.28) or if not Jesus, Matthew was.
Yeah right.

In view of what you claim, how would you answer Jesus?
First, let's keep this between you and me. If you accept the conventional Christian interpretation, then answer me this. Where else does David refer to the Messiah in the Psalms? I know of no other instance if indeed this is actually a Davidic Psalm and David is indeed referring to the Messiah. But the Psalm makes far more sense, and is in keeping with the rest of the Psalms if the "Lord" in question, the second "Lord" is actually King David himself, and the Psalm was penned by another.

David was King, the only "LORD" David knew was YHVH.

I were one of Jesus contemporaries, I would would not yet have been able to say to Jesus "you've been wrong before" because the "some standing here" generation would still have been around. (Matthew 16.28). The jury would have still been out on that one. But I would said that I think the Psalm was mistakenly attributed to David. And I doubt very much that it was Jesus who was wrong either in Matthew 16.28, or here. I think more likely it was Matthew, and his attempt to revise Scripture to fit his Messianic agenda for Jesus.

But in retrospect it is clear that "Jesus" was wrong about the timing of his 2nd coming.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
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Re: How can the son of David also be his Lord?

Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote: Perhaps you can solve the conundrum Jesus put to the Pharisees that completely stumped them?

Matthew 22:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?�

“The son of David,� they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44  ‘YHVH said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.� ’

45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?�

46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
The Pharisees couldn't come up with any answer.

How about you?

What do you think?

How would you answer him?
Also, where does the Psalmist, (not the Pharisees who engaged Jesus), call the second "Lord" his "Son"? He does not. It is only a revisionist interpretation by "Jesus" or "Matthew" or the first century Pharisees which makes the 2nd "Lord" the Son of David.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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