Atheists like me generally regard the Jehovah god of the biblical writings to be as mythological and imaginary as any other ethnic deity.
Other folks claim that Jehovah (or Yahweh, or Whatever) is God with a capital G. I say this is a false claim, and find numerous ways to point out the falsity.
I was taught in Sunday school that "God" resided in the Ark of the Covenant when he visited us in pre-Jesus times.
The biblical writings tell us that the Ark of the Covenant was a magic wooden box. The Israelites would consult the magic box, and sprinkle blood on it, and Jehovah would speak to them from the magic box.
When Moses entered the tent of meeting to speak with Jehovah, he heard the voice speaking to him from between the two cherubim above the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant law. In this way Jehovah spoke to him.
The magic box would also cause plagues and zap thousands of people just for looking at it.
Do stories of Jehovah and the Magic Box support my position that the biblical Jehovah is just another imaginary Middle-East lowercase god, surrounded by primitive fantasy and make-believe …?
Jehovah and the Magic Box
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #2Yes. If I said no, then I would be special pleading because we have the same evidence for Jehovah/Jesus and those pagan gods. Jehovah and Jesus, the gods of Christianity, are privileged and are granted reality and even historicity. I think it's fair to say that if paganism had won out over Christianity, then we'd have a "vast majority of pagan scholars" who would agree that Hercules was a real man. These scholars would point to all those people from antiquity who attest to Hercules writing of him in their narratives and letters. With all that multiple attestation, Hercules would just need to be a real guy, right?SallyF wrote:Do stories of Jehovah and the Magic Box support my position that the biblical Jehovah is just another imaginary Middle-East lowercase god, surrounded by primitive fantasy and make-believe …?
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #3I would say that God exists, has always existed, and always will exist. But that human conceptions of Him change, and (ideally) progress. If you want to argue against primitive, bronze age ideas of God, feel free. But you will be arguing with yourself, not with Christians whose notions of the divine have developed considerably in the 4000 years or more since then.SallyF wrote:
Do stories of Jehovah and the Magic Box support my position that the biblical Jehovah is just another imaginary Middle-East lowercase god, surrounded by primitive fantasy and make-believe …?
Best wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Not all who wander are lost
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #42ndRateMind wrote:I would say that God exists, has always existed, and always will exist. But that human conceptions of Him change, and (ideally) progress. If you want to argue against primitive, bronze age ideas of God, feel free. But you will be arguing with yourself, not Christians whose notions of the divine have developed considerably in the 4000 years or more since then.SallyF wrote:
Do stories of Jehovah and the Magic Box support my position that the biblical Jehovah is just another imaginary Middle-East lowercase god, surrounded by primitive fantasy and make-believe …?
Best wishes, 2RM.
Your optimistic view of some universal advancement amongst Christians regarding their notions of the divine falls flat.
- Explorer: Ark of the Covenant May Have Been Found
Bob Cornuke, president of the Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration (BASE) Institute, wrote in a blog post that a recent investigation led him to Ethiopia, where tradition says the Ark of the Covenant -- and the Ten Commandments that it housed -- were taken following events described in the Old Testament.
The Ark allegedly is housed at St. Mary’s of Zion Church in Axum, Ethiopia, where a “Guardian of the Ark� spends his entire life protecting it. No one else is allowed to see it.
“This man, reportedly, lives his entire life inside a fenced-off area surrounding St. Mary’s of Zion,� Cornuke wrote in the blog. “He will not leave this fenced-off compound until he dies -- when he will be replaced by the next Guardian of the Ark. In the chapel of the church, 30 robes from 30 previous guardians are on display -- and every one of those 30 professed that the object they protected was the true Ark of the Covenant.�
https://www.christianheadlines.com/cont ... found.html
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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #5This technique used to demean the beliefs of Christians is called "telling the story badly" which was a fun game some 6 months ago on the internet but has been a staple in anti-Christian circles for millenia.SallyF wrote:The biblical writings tell us that the Ark of the Covenant was a magic wooden box. The Israelites would consult the magic box, and sprinkle blood on it, and Jehovah would speak to them from the magic box.
For me, the need for atheists and other secularists to twist the story to corrupt its meaning shows the paucity of their stance, their inability to deal with the meaning as accepted in the Bible by the people of the Bible.
A magic wooden box indeed...pffft.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #6[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant
Looks to me like that's just what a magic wooden box would do ….
A magic wooden box taken seriously enough to make it into great works of art. And get reproduced with a Latin inscription.
That's Moses in the foreground - you know - with the horns ….
It's all in the "Word of God".
It just takes "faith" to make the bits you still like seem real.
When the Israelites, led by Joshua toward the Promised Land, arrived at the banks of the Jordan river, the Ark was carried in the lead preceding the people and was the signal for their advance. During the crossing, the river grew dry as soon as the feet of the priests carrying the Ark touched its waters, and remained so until the priests—with the Ark—left the river after the people had passed overA magic wooden box indeed...pffft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant
Looks to me like that's just what a magic wooden box would do ….
A magic wooden box taken seriously enough to make it into great works of art. And get reproduced with a Latin inscription.
That's Moses in the foreground - you know - with the horns ….
It's all in the "Word of God".
It just takes "faith" to make the bits you still like seem real.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #7No one offers a scrap of IVE (independently verifiable evidence) that any version pf God has EVER existed.2ndRateMind wrote:I would say that God exists, has always existed, and always will exist. But that human conceptions of Him change, and (ideally) progress. If you want to argue against primitive, bronze age ideas of God, feel free. But you will be arguing with yourself, not with Christians whose notions of the divine have developed considerably in the 4000 years or more since then.SallyF wrote:
Do stories of Jehovah and the Magic Box support my position that the biblical Jehovah is just another imaginary Middle-East lowercase god, surrounded by primitive fantasy and make-believe …?
Best wishes, 2RM.
Human conceptions of God have indeed changed over the millennia. But that had more to do with who was waving the biggest swords, not the biggest "scriptures".
Christianity was spread at the point of the Roman spear and the European musket. Just ask remnant indigenous populations.
You claim:
But that human conceptions of Him change
You have given "God" number and gender, and are telling us that a single male has always been "God".
That is false.
Please research concepts of God that far outdate the notion of "God" as the single male ethic deity Jehovah.
Jehovah is NOT God with a capital G.
You say:
Human conceptions happen inside human minds.But that human conceptions
They are known as imaginings ....
God can be anything humans imagine God to be.
And the only place we EVER find God is in human imaginations.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #8If you don't like Sally's version, then try the New Revised Standard Version. Exodus 25:9-11 tells us:ttruscott wrote:This technique used to demean the beliefs of Christians is called "telling the story badly" which was a fun game some 6 months ago on the internet but has been a staple in anti-Christian circles for millenia.SallyF wrote:The biblical writings tell us that the Ark of the Covenant was a magic wooden box. The Israelites would consult the magic box, and sprinkle blood on it, and Jehovah would speak to them from the magic box.
For me, the need for atheists and other secularists to twist the story to corrupt its meaning shows the paucity of their stance, their inability to deal with the meaning as accepted in the Bible by the people of the Bible.
A magic wooden box indeed...pffft.
So we have a wooden box all right. As for the magic, also from the NRSV we have Numbers 7:89:They shall make an ark of acacia wood; it shall be two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and outside you shall overlay it, and you shall make a molding of gold upon it all around.
So it looks like Sally got it quite right. What is it about the story of the Ark of the Covenant that is told so badly by the Bible?When Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the Lord, he would hear the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the covenant from between the two cherubim; thus it spoke to him.
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #9Yes, that's a wooden box all right. Maybe ttruscot doesn't like the magic part.SallyF wrote:Looks to me like that's just what a magic wooden box would do ….
A magic wooden box taken seriously enough to make it into great works of art. And get reproduced with a Latin inscription.
That's Moses in the foreground - you know - with the horns ….
It's all in the "Word of God".
It just takes "faith" to make the bits you still like seem real.
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #10By what I know, Bible doesn’t say God resided in the Ark. Can you show scripture that tells God resided in the Ark?SallyF wrote: ..."God" resided in the Ark of the Covenant ...