John 5 23 - divinity claim?

[Wootah]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

[tigger2]

If there are degrees of honor:

John 5:23 does not have to mean that the honor given to the Son has to be exactly equal in quantity and quality as that given to the Father.

For example,

“just as [kathos] Moses lifted up the [copper] serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up� - John 3:14, NRSV.

These two events are hardly exactly equal. There is a degree of similarity only. Just as there was a “lifting up� in one part of the comparison, there was also a “lifting up� (of a different kind and to a different degree) in the other part. We know Moses didn’t lift up a timber as large and heavy as the one Jesus died on. We know he didn’t swing it up and anchor one end in a hole in the ground until the copper serpent died a horrible death. We know that the one act was much more important than the other in all respects. It was a similar act only in a certain respect and to a certain degree.

And examine Luke 11:30,
“Just as [kathos] Jonah became a sign to the people of Ninevah, so the Son of man will be to this generation,� - NRSV

This does not mean the two signs are equal either literally or figuratively. The details of the sign to the Ninevites were very different from the sign of Jesus’ death and resurrection. The degree of importance of the sign of Jonah was much less than that of Jesus!

And John 17:16,
“[Jesus' followers] are not of the world, just as [kathos] I am not of the world.� - NKJV

It would be foolish to insist that, in every aspect of the phrase, Jesus’ followers were not of the world precisely as he was not. We could, in such a case, end up ‘proving’ that Jesus’ followers had been created in heaven as spirit persons before all the rest of creation, just as he had been. (Or for trinitarians, that they had always existed as God Himself from all eternity.)

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?

I would honour Jesus less than God. Jesus has never asked for any glory or honour that belonged to his father.




JW

Out of curiosity, how does a person honor one less than another? Does one do it by dishonoring the other some way?

Now there are certainly different degrees of glory as a verb. Glory as a verb means to "take great pride or pleasure in". We can certainly take more or less pleasure/pride in a person. Even glory used as a noun for beauty can be have degrees. Yet beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Glory as in renown, fame, and prestige can have degrees.

However honor doesn't seem to have degrees. If some says, "That person honors their teachers by wining the spelling bee." All teachers have the same honor though some teachers might be better in one field or another.

The poster that started this tread is trying to make it a competition and Jehovah and His Son are not in competition.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?

I would honour Jesus less than God. Jesus has never asked for any glory or honour that belonged to his father.




JW

Well 2 questions now:

1) Do you think Timothy is right or you are right? Can you honour Jesus less if according to Timothy all are honoured?

2) If you honour Jesus less then the Father then how dp ypu reconcile that position w8th the verse in discussion. Less is not just the same as.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

The way I see it by giving the person the honour they are due. If Ceasar calls for honour/respect I give it. If he demands honour due to God (Worshipful honour) or wants to be honoured as my King and spiritual leader (Jesus) they are demanding more honour than I can give.

I admit I haven't done a word study on either honour or glory, and I'm too tired to do one at present, so I'll stand corrected but if honour is giving someone praise and respect even if it's absolute and indivisible, one can only honour someone for what they are not for what they are not, so Jesus cannot ever be honoured as the Supreme ruler of the Universe, while Jehovah can.

R.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?

I would honour Jesus less than God. Jesus has never asked for any glory or honour that belonged to his father.




JW

Out of curiosity, how does a person honor one less than another? Does one do it by dishonoring the other some way?

Now there are certainly different degrees of glory as a verb. Glory as a verb means to "take great pride or pleasure in". We can certainly take more or less pleasure/pride in a person. Even glory used as a noun for beauty can be have degrees. Yet beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Glory as in renown, fame, and prestige can have degrees.

However honor doesn't seem to have degrees. If some says, "That person honors their teachers by wining the spelling bee." All teachers have the same honor though some teachers might be better in one field or another.

The poster that started this tread is trying to make it a competition and Jehovah and His Son are not in competition.

Youre making the word worthless. Are the spectators honoured in a running race? To the same level as the winner? Is there really no difference in honour?

[polonius]

Wootah posted

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.

This is in error. The Apostle John never claimed to have written a gospel. And John was not the “beloved disciple.� He was an apostle. The beloved disciple was Lazarus and is so identified in John’s gospel.

Note also, that before dying, Jesus gave the care of his mother to the “beloved disciple� who took her to his home within the hour.

Lazarus live in Bethany, about half an hour walk from Jerusalem. John and the other apostles lived in Galilee, a three day journey from Jerusalem. QED

[Checkpoint]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

It's not about anyone deserving anything.

It's about how we are to honor the Father.

John 5:

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

"A text taken out of its context is a pretext for a prooftext".

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

Can anyone explain Checkpoint's post?

[Checkpoint]

Wootah posted

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.

This is in error. The Apostle John never claimed to have written a gospel. And John was not the “beloved disciple.� He was an apostle. The beloved disciple was Lazarus and is so identified in John’s gospel.

Note also, that before dying, Jesus gave the care of his mother to the “beloved disciple� who took her to his home within the hour.

Lazarus live in Bethany, about half an hour walk from Jerusalem. John and the other apostles lived in Galilee, a three day journey from Jerusalem. QED

Totally off-topic.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

Can anyone explain Checkpoint's post?

Maybe, maybe not.

Let me know if you need any help.

Grace and peace.