John 5 23 - divinity claim?

[Wootah]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 19 by Checkpoint]

You posted text from the Bible with no argument.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 19 by Checkpoint]

You posted text from the Bible with no argument.

That post commenced with two sentences and ended with one sentence.

The text between them was the body.

Put together in that way as an "argument".

Grace and peace.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?

I would honour Jesus less than God. Jesus has never asked for any glory or honour that belonged to his father.




JW

Out of curiosity, how does a person honor one less than another? Does one do it by dishonoring the other some way?

Now there are certainly different degrees of glory as a verb. Glory as a verb means to "take great pride or pleasure in". We can certainly take more or less pleasure/pride in a person. Even glory used as a noun for beauty can be have degrees. Yet beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Glory as in renown, fame, and prestige can have degrees.

However honor doesn't seem to have degrees. If some says, "That person honors their teachers by wining the spelling bee." All teachers have the same honor though some teachers might be better in one field or another.

The poster that started this tread is trying to make it a competition and Jehovah and His Son are not in competition.

Youre making the word worthless. Are the spectators honoured in a running race? To the same level as the winner? Is there really no difference in honour?

Worthless? No. You're making the word more than what it is.
See, you keep going back this 'race'. Jesus and Jehovah are not in a race. You're putting them in a race but the Bible isn't.

Who are you calling the spectators? Certainly you're not saying us humans are the ones determining factor if Jehovah or Jesus get honor! In reality, what you call spectators are the ones actually in the race. Yet John 12:26 says, "If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him." There is no degree of honor mentioned in this scripture either. All get the same level of honor.

Acts 28:10 notes being 'honored in many ways'. Yet here again all of the honors are equal just speaks of their number.

That could be the only difference in Jesus and Jehovah is who gets honored for what. Jehovah gets the honor for the planning and the sending Jesus and yet Jesus gets the honor for doing his Father's will. But they are not in competition as you seem to present. Even Christians are not in competition for honor. 1 Corinthians 9:24, 25, Matt 10:22, Philippians 3:14, 2 Tim 4:7, 8 says the race for life is something all can win.

So this whole competition thing needs to be trashed. Both Jehovah and Jesus should be honored as the Bible says they should because they are working at the same goal and that goal come to pass because both are doing their part. Thus why Luke 10:16 says, to reject God's Son is to reject God Himself. To reject the worker is to reject the work, the planner of the work the whole ball of wax. What about us? Are we doing our part so that we can be honored by them?

[polonius]

Wootah posted

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.

This is in error. The Apostle John never claimed to have written a gospel. And John was not the “beloved disciple.� He was an apostle. The beloved disciple was Lazarus and is so identified in John’s gospel.

Note also, that before dying, Jesus gave the care of his mother to the “beloved disciple� who took her to his home within the hour.

Lazarus live in Bethany, about half an hour walk from Jerusalem. John and the other apostles lived in Galilee, a three day journey from Jerusalem. QED

Totally off-topic.

RESPONSE: Not so


The topic is the writings of John. But what we call John's gospel was not written by the Apostle
John but by the beloved disciple. So any claim attributed to John obviously isn't John's.

[Checkpoint]

Wootah posted

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.

This is in error. The Apostle John never claimed to have written a gospel. And John was not the “beloved disciple.� He was an apostle. The beloved disciple was Lazarus and is so identified in John’s gospel.

Note also, that before dying, Jesus gave the care of his mother to the “beloved disciple� who took her to his home within the hour.

Lazarus live in Bethany, about half an hour walk from Jerusalem. John and the other apostles lived in Galilee, a three day journey from Jerusalem. QED

Totally off-topic.

RESPONSE: Not so


The topic is the writings of John. But what we call John's gospel was not written by the Apostle
John but by the beloved disciple. So any claim attributed to John obviously isn't John's.

The topic is not the writings of John.

The topic is not the authorship of any writings.

Grace and peace.

[Overcomer]

Sorry about that. I posted the wrong thing. I'll try again. O.

[Overcomer]

Okay. Here's what I meant to say:

tigger2 wrote:

John 5:23 does not have to mean that the honor given to the Son has to be exactly equal in quantity and quality as that given to the Father.

Yes, it does. in John 5:18, it says this:

Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

As always, it's important to read verses in context. It's verse 18 that shows us that verse 23 is talking about equality between God the Father and God the Son. It tells us that the Pharisees understood Jesus to be equating himself with God. In historical-grammatical hermeneutics, understanding how the first audience understood these things is all-important for our own understanding of Scripture today.

Then look at verse 23:

It says that "all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father."

The Greek word translated as "just as" is καθώς (transliterated "kathos"). It can mean "properly", "in proportion to" AND "just as (in direct proportion), corresponding to fully (exactly)." See here:

https://biblehub.com/greek/2531.htm

So it does mean the Son should be honored exactly as the Father is honored. Even your own bogus New World Translation translates it as "just as" meaning "exactly". See here:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... ks/john/5/

So, as Wootah rightly noted, if Jesus himself said he is to be honored just as the Father is, that means he's putting himself on the exact same level as God which means he is either committing blasphemy (and no one should follow him) or he really is God just as much as his Father is (and he should be believed and worshipped as such).

[JehovahsWitness]

John 5:18, it says this: ...He was ... making Himself equal with God.

John 5:18 aren't the words of Jesus, they are the words of Jesus enemies, the religious leaders. Here are some other conclusions those same people voiced about Jesus:

- Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard - Matthew 11:19

- You are a Samaritan and have a demon in you? John 8:48

- “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelze·ub, the ruler of the demons." - Matthew 12:24

- "He has blasphemed!" - Matthew 26:65

- We found this man subverting our nation, forbidding the paying of taxes to Caesar - Luke 23:2

Could it be that the conclusions of these men might be less than 100% accurate?



JW

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 22 by 2timothy316]

I picked the race example to make things clearer. I had no intention you would imagine Jesus and Jehovah and Jupiter were racing. Change the metaphor.

Should an author be honoured as much as the editor or the printer or the critic or the reader?

Now does it make sense to you? Who should be honoured most in the above scenario?

[William]

Jesus: …Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.…

Wootah: Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

William: The point of Jesus mission was to inform us that we are all 'of GOD' and in that, Jesus was the messenger.
Jesus came to replace the false ideas of GOD which organised religions of the day had conjured.
Indeed, his message is clear that if we honor one another in the same spirit the information was given to us, we would be honoring GOD.
Would we argue that honoring one another is something we do not 'deserve' from one another because we are 'not GOD'?
If so, then we would do well to understand the Christ's message and stop following such notions of GOD which provoke us to feel about each other as beings who do not deserve to be honored.
Either way, it is a learned thing and the choice is each of ours to make.
We ultimately are the ones who's judgments will judge us. Christ is that which allows it to happen. The Christ acts as the individuals mirror and will reflect back exactly what the individuals judgments are...ONTO the individual.
Essentially then, through Christ, the individual ends up judging him/her self.
If the individual understands intimately that they are an aspect of GOD and express themselves accordingly, then the individual does not judge and is not judged. Because 'GOD does not judge'.