Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Moderator: Moderators
- Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9190
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 188 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21112
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 792 times
- Been thanked: 1122 times
- Contact:
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #2Wootah wrote: Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
Did Jesus actually say the word "equally"?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9190
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 188 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #3[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
How does that help? If I do anything to honour the Father that I don't do for the Son then Im not listening to that verse.
How does that help? If I do anything to honour the Father that I don't do for the Son then Im not listening to that verse.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21112
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 792 times
- Been thanked: 1122 times
- Contact:
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #4[Replying to post 3 by Wootah]
Is honour mutually exclusive? Can one not honour both Jesus and his father ,; honour Jesus because he is God's son, honour JEHOVAH because he is the Almighty and superior to everyone (including the son) and ... and honour our parents because they looked after us and taught us as children?
Is that not possible?
Is honour mutually exclusive? Can one not honour both Jesus and his father ,; honour Jesus because he is God's son, honour JEHOVAH because he is the Almighty and superior to everyone (including the son) and ... and honour our parents because they looked after us and taught us as children?
DEUTERONOMY 5:16
Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you...
Is that not possible?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4184
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 176 times
- Been thanked: 459 times
Post #5
I didn't realize there are levels of honor. The Bible says to honor my parents. (Ex 20:12) It also says to honor to men of all sorts. (1 Peter 2:17) Yes honor Jesus and honor his Father Jehovah. I see no difference made in the level of honor in any verse. You either honor someone or you don't. There is no 'kind of honoring' someone. Kind of honoring someone is like being 'kind of pregnant'. No one be 'kind of pregnant'. On/off, up/down, dead/alive, honor/dishonor etc etc.
"He's only mostly dead" - Princess Bride
"He's only mostly dead" - Princess Bride
-
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #6Yeah, that is a good point. But it's from the least reliable most recent Gospel. The outlier Gospel which differs in many significant ways from the Synoptics.Wootah wrote: Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
In John, Jesus does not really "empty himself" as Paul would have it. On the contrary, he grasps for a share of the glory of the Father. Far more so than he does in Matthew, Mark or Luke.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
- Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9190
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 188 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Post #7
[Replying to 2timothy316]
Easily disproven. In a running race the person that comes first is honoured with a gold medal and the person that comes second with a silver medal. But it would be wrong to honour second with a gold medal abd even more wrong to honour them with two gold medals.
Easily disproven. In a running race the person that comes first is honoured with a gold medal and the person that comes second with a silver medal. But it would be wrong to honour second with a gold medal abd even more wrong to honour them with two gold medals.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
- Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9190
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 188 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #8[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]
Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?
Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4184
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 176 times
- Been thanked: 459 times
Post #9
You're not describing honor, your describing a reward. All are honored, the metals are not honor. There is even an 'honorable mention' metal. To honor someone is to "regard with great respect". Metals have nothing to do with real honor. This is something mankind has invented for completion. Different metals are rewards for when one person is better at another in a particular field. Jehovah and His Son are not in completion with each other.Wootah wrote: [Replying to 2timothy316]
Easily disproven. In a running race the person that comes first is honoured with a gold medal and the person that comes second with a silver medal. But it would be wrong to honour second with a gold medal abd even more wrong to honour them with two gold medals.
There are no degrees of honor. If you are not fully honoring someone than you are dishonoring them. No one has to dishonor Jesus in order to honor Jehovah. I don't dishonor my mother in some way so just so that I can honor my father more. I honor them the same. So you metal analogy is not a good representation.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21112
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 792 times
- Been thanked: 1122 times
- Contact:
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #10Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]
Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?
I would honour Jesus less than God. Jesus has never asked for any glory or honour that belonged to his father.
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8