If Christianity is false

Argue for and against Christianity

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Mithrae
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If Christianity is false

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

How many Christians are only in it for the promised rewards, whether in heaven or supposed answers to all their prayers?

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 wrote that "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable," a passage which was quoted and liked by a couple of Christians in response to the recent thread wondering what if Jesus was wrong about things. But that seems a rather strange view to me, as if the Christian God were commanding his followers to do terrible, arduous things that they'd never dream of doing without the threat of hellfire looming over their heads. In another recent thread suggesting that 'theists' are unaware of their burden I argued that (at least in the view of Matthew's author and even many non-Christians) even Jesus' commands to stop storing earthly possessions, stop working for money and instead trust in God for one's daily bread are viewed as ultimately liberating, regardless how difficult the initial decision may be. As Matthew's Jesus says, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

But even for Christians who don't follow those teachings of Jesus...
Do you get any kind of good moral framework out of your religion? Or would you suddenly start stealing, lying and cheating on your partner if you thought there was no God?

Have you gained any friendships or do you otherwise value whatever community engagement you get out of your religion?

Do you find any encouragement or inspiration from proven, unproven or even fictitious stories about Jesus or other followers of your God?

If you weren't a Christian would you suddenly stop enjoying that good feeling of giving money to worthy causes?



I'm just wondering, if there were no God, no Jesus and no miracles, would that actually be a good reason to stop being a Christian, for those who currently are? Or would it just be a reason to adopt a more 'liberal' approach to your religious tradition?
Last edited by Mithrae on Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If Christianity is false

Post #2

Post by Mithrae »

Mithrae wrote: Do you get any kind of good moral framework out of your religion? Or would you suddenly start stealing, lying and cheating on your partner if you thought there was no God?
In my case, as a 19-20 year old Christian I felt pretty guilty about drinking and going out to nightclubs with my mates, and afterwards for a while made it my goal to start sleeping with as many hot girls as I could. Like probably everyone else, at the time I rationalized my decision to leave Christianity as being a primarily intellectual decision - and admittedly I've never found cause to regret it either intellectually or otherwise - but with the benefit of hindsight it is easier to recognize this and some of the other less than purely intellectual influences likely in play there :lol: But I'm sure not all Christians have similar urges towards ethically and socially acceptable stuff which is nevertheless 'sinful' according to traditional orthodoxy; that seems like a fairly specific kind of motivation to leave the religion (and indeed, many Christians are cunning enough to simply decide that times have changed and don't regard casual sex as being 'sinful' any more).

It's understandable why horny teenagers and even moreso LGBTQ folk could have issues with conservative Christian morality and feel pushed to leave on that basis, but that probably doesn't apply to most folk. So why would others leave the culture and community of Christianity behind, even if they decide that its metaphysics is false?

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Re: If Christianity is false

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Post by Jagella »

Mithrae wrote: How many Christians are only in it for the promised rewards, whether in heaven or supposed answers to all their prayers?
It's human nature to seek rewards for what we do, or to put it another way, we won't do anything unless there's something in it for us. Even acts of charity involve seeking recognition and praise. If we tell our significant others that we love them, we do so looking for affection, companionship, and often sex, of course.

Christians, being human, are no different, and the gospel writers understood that people can be enticed with goodies. The NRSV Bible quotes Jesus as offering rewards sixteen times to those who would follow him. I find it hard to believe that anybody would believe the wild claims of the New Testament if there was nothing to gain for doing so.

So to answer your question, I'd say that Christians are Christians because they seek rewards in heaven and on earth.

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Re: If Christianity is false

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Post by Divine Insight »

Mithrae wrote: So why would others leave the culture and community of Christianity behind, even if they decide that its metaphysics is false?
If it's false, it's false. As far as I can see that alone should be more than sufficient to leave the religion and to even renounce it as clearly being false.

In fact, that reason alone is why I personally left Christianity. It was never about moral incompatibility. In fact, speaking to the concern you mentioned about having casual sex, that has never been something I would care to partake in. If there's no intimate relationship associated with the sexual intimacy, then I'm simply not interested. I have absolutely no interest in sex just for the sake of the physical act of sex. And this has always been true, even when I was a teen. Did I want to have sex? Sure! But not without the intimate relationship. That's just how I have always felt about it.

In fact, as far as I can see my moral values trump the moral values of Christianity in any case. I actually see Christianity as being a highly immoral religion. Christ seems to have been attributed with far better moral principles than Yahweh, to be sure. But as far as I'm concerned even Christ's moral values weren't all that great. I would put my moral values up against Christ's moral values any day and feel certain that my moral values would come out on top.

So morality had nothing whatsoever to do with me rejecting Christianity. If I were to become a Christian today I wouldn't need to change my moral values one iota. If anything I could lower my moral standards and still qualify as a moral Christian.

So no, the only valid reason for rejecting Christianity is because it's obviously false. Period.

Why bother believing in something that is clearly false? :-k

IMHO, it's immoral too, but that's basically a secondary observation. Keep in mind that even if we give our seal of approval to the moral values of Christ, that still doesn't repair the immoral values of Yahweh. Christ can't erase the immorality of Yahweh.
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Re: If Christianity is false

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Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

If it were shown that Christianity was false (e.g., an historical hypothesis that was superior in scope, power, plausibility, and simplicity, were demonstrated) I would most certainly abandon Christianity, but retain most of the moral law presupposed by the religion. The moral law is not an invention of Christianity.

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Re: If Christianity is false

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Post by Mithrae »

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

If it were shown that Christianity was false (e.g., an historical hypothesis that was superior in scope, power, plausibility, and simplicity, were demonstrated) I would most certainly abandon Christianity, but retain most of the moral law presupposed by the religion. The moral law is not an invention of Christianity.
Fair enough, but you (and others, but you're the first Christian) haven't really explained why: Christianity has its metaphysical claims, its morals, its community, literature, music and so on. Your example involves part of the metaphysical basis being shown unlikely (not actually disproven) and without even an alternative, incompatible metaphysics replacing it (no proof that one should be a Muslim i stead, for example). So would that partial failure of one aspect of Christianity be a good reason to abandon it almost entirely?

Some people would (and have) said similar things about doctrines like Christ's inerrancy, biblical inerrancy or young-earth creationism as you have of the resurrection: Seems to me it's a case of tying up a huge chunk of their loves and identities into would should be considerably less important questions of simple truth and probability. (Though in fairness, a lot of critics also take the same kind of all or nothing attitude to religion too, perhaps undermining their own efficacy.)

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Re: If Christianity is false

Post #7

Post by Divine Insight »

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

If it were shown that Christianity was false (e.g., an historical hypothesis that was superior in scope, power, plausibility, and simplicity, were demonstrated) I would most certainly abandon Christianity, but retain most of the moral law presupposed by the religion. The moral law is not an invention of Christianity.

All this tells me is that your idea of moral values is far removed from mine. For one thing the moral values associated with Christ cannot erase the immoral values associated with Yahweh. Even the NT has Christ renouncing the immoral values of of Yahweh. He rebukes Yahweh's commandment that we must stone sinners to death. He rebukes Yahweh's commandment that we are to seek revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and instead Christ teaches to turn the other cheek and not to hold a grudge.

Christ rebukes Yahweh's commandment that we are to remove the evil from among us and instead he teaches us that we are not to resist evil but to allow those who are evil to walk among us.

So Christianity as a whole theology doesn't even have any consistent moral values to offer in any case. It's a theology filled either contradictory moral teachings.

Also, there is a huge problem with any support for this theology based on morality.

You say:
liamconnor wrote: I would most certainly abandon Christianity, but retain most of the moral law presupposed by the religion. The moral law is not an invention of Christianity.
But why would you retain those moral values? :-k

The answer to that question should be crystal clear. The only rational reason you should do so is if you have already personally given your approval of those moral values.

You can't be getting your moral values from the theology, because if that were the case you could have no argument for why those values are indeed "moral". The only argument you could give in that regard is that you have personally given your approval to those moral values.

In fact, if you could make secular logical arguments for those moral values then you will have justice vindicated a purely secular morality. No need for any God there.

~~~~~~

You and I seem to be in totally different boats when it comes to this theology.

If we had absolute historical proof that some Jewish guy argued with the religious authorities of his day, was rumored to have performed miracles (which we know we have no historical proof for), was ultimately crucified by a mob as the Gospel rumors say, and even if it could be historically verified that some people actually saw a living Jesus after this botched crucifixion, I would still have no reason to believe that this guy as a God, and certainly not the son of Yahweh which even the Gospel rumors show that Jesus didn't even agree with on many issues.

So historically speaking, even if we could verify that this guy actually lived and did many of the things claimed by those rumors I still wouldn't be impressed with the rumors themselves. I would still have no reason to believe that Jesus was the Son of the Old Testament God named Yahweh.

And so now your "secondary argument" is that even if Jesus was not the Son of God, you'd still embrace the religion based on moral values.

That's an argument I would reject entirely. As far as I can see many of the principles and values taught by this religion are what I would consider to be quite immoral.

Even Jesus was rumored to have told people to reject their families in favor of following him. I don't see how anyone could consider that as a morally sound principle. Telling people to abandon their families is, IMHO, an immoral teaching.

You can I can then have personal arguments over what we personally deem to be moral. But that's certainly not going to help this religious theology.

Also, if we're going to debate moral values we have no choice but to make secular logical arguments to support our positions. Therefore, in the end we are both supporting secular morality anyway. Even if we disagree on what secular morality should be.

If you can justify biblical morality using secular logical arguments, then you clearly don't need to adopt biblical morality since you can obviously arrive at the same conclusion using secular logic anyway.

So any attempt to justify the morality of the Bible using secular logical arguments is a self-defeating endeavor anyway.

In fact you say:
liamconnor wrote: The moral law is not an invention of Christianity.
What is it then?

Secular logic?

If the moral law of Christian Theology is not an invention of Christian Theology, then please explain exactly what you think it is.
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Re: If Christianity is false

Post #8

Post by bjs »

[Replying to Mithrae]

Could you be more specific about what you mean by saying that Christianity is false?

Do you mean that Jesus did not rise from the dead, therefor invalidating the incarnation, atonement, justification, inspiration of the Bible, and the other doctrines that are specifically Christian?

Or do you mean that in this hypothetical there is no God of any kind and materialism is true?
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Re: If Christianity is false

Post #9

Post by Mithrae »

bjs wrote: [Replying to Mithrae]

Could you be more specific about what you mean by saying that Christianity is false?

Do you mean that Jesus did not rise from the dead, therefor invalidating the incarnation, atonement, justification, inspiration of the Bible, and the other doctrines that are specifically Christian?

Or do you mean that in this hypothetical there is no God of any kind and materialism is true?
Either or both, if you feel inclined. I didn't word the thread title very well but I'm wondering under what scenario it would make sense to renounce Christianity and leave the church.

I'm suggesting that the mere falsehood of some metaphysical claims (even those traditionally considered core doctrines) shouldn't be such a scenario, generally: If the moral and existential frameworks, community engagement, amusing/encouraging/inspirational/cautionary literature and other cultural trappings (music, art etc.) associated with Christianity are helpful and enjoyable - and I assume most Christians would say that they are - then even if it were established that some doctrine/s believed 'essential' by many Christians in more primitive times are actually false, it would seem an over-reaction to lose all the good stuff on that basis.

Furthermore I think that the critics who share the all or nothing approach to religion may be shooting themselves in the foot, at least if the intention were to encourage more reasonable thinking and opinions: 'There is no God, oh well' seems much more palatable than 'There is no God, and therefore you've wasted half your life and now ought to leave your church.' Maybe not the best example, since I think some kind of god is more probable than not, but the same applies to any other supposedly core/essential doctrine - supposed inerrancy of Jesus or that other 'word of God,' for example.

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Post #10

Post by Overcomer »

Here's the thing:

Christianity isn't just about following rules and regulations. Being a Christian is about being in a relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Being a Christian means having one's spirit, dead in sin, brought alive in Christ. Faith is about knowledge of who Jesus is, what he did and why he did it and what that means to me. So being a Christian is having both head and heart knowledge of the Lord. I couldn't deny his existence any more than I could deny the existence of my biological father. I have studied the arguments atheists make and the flaws in them are many and profound.

So when you talk about morality as if that's all Christianity is about, that is, following rules about sex, money, alcohol, etc., you're missing the whole point.

As for the issue of sex, you talk as if Christians think sex is evil. We don't. God created it and like everything he created, it's good. What we hate is the abuse of sex, the use of it in ways that God never intended, in ways that hurt people.

However, it is true that people do walk away from God and the church because they want to indulge in sins that the Bible forbids. Their sin means more to them than God does. And many times, it's sexual sin that pulls them from the Lord. It is one of the most powerful temptations out there.

Always remember this: Whenever God says don't do something, he's saying, "Don't do it because it will hurt you and, because I love you, I don't want you to be hurt." God isn't some spoil-sport in the sky, trying to make you miserable. The exact opposite is true. He wants all of us to have the richest, most deeply fulfilling life possible, but sin won't allow us to have it if we love and follow it instead of God who, through the Holy Spirit, gives us the power to resist sin if we're willing to work with him to do so.

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