Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Two hot topics for the price of one

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #1

Post by Danmark »

Does evangelical support for Trump create a crisis for Christianity?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cn2gnaekoQ

Are his policies and personal character consistent with Christian values?

Related to this, should a Christian who wants to bear witness for the risen Christ sell all he has, give to the poor, and follow Jesus?
Or should he or she accumulate wealth to show he is blessed by God?

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #11

Post by Danmark »

Elijah John wrote:
Danmark wrote: Your response made sense until:
bjs wrote:
Neither selling everything nor accumulating wealth seems to fall in line with the teachings of the Apostles.
'Jesus said to him,
“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.�'

__ Matthew 19:21
Is support for Nancy Pelosi contrary to Christian values? I doubt she has done that either.
Virtually NO 'Christian' goes that far.* Still, there is no comparison between Pelosi who shares the Christian values of helping the poor, and DJT who is an absolute materialist, cheater, felon, sexual predator and habitual liar.



___________________
*Note to self
Stop condemning Christians for not giving away all their possessions. This admonition only made sense if the world was about to end. Jesus got that wrong.

justme2
Apprentice
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 12:07 pm

trumps inner self

Post #12

Post by justme2 »

“When you’re a star they let you do it,� Trump says in the recording, which was obtained by the Washington Post and released on Friday. “You can do anything.�

Trump, in a 2005 conversation with a television host that was caught on a live microphone, describes a failed seduction, saying: “I did try and fuck her, she was married,� and says that when he meets beautiful women he feels able to “grab them by the pussy�.

“You can do anything,� he tells Billy Bush, the TV host who is a cousin of George W and Jeb Bush.

On Friday night, amid a storm of condemnation and disavowals by other Republicans, Trump released a video statement in which he made an almost unprecedented apology.

“I said it. I am wrong. I apologize�.
'You can do anything': Trump brags on tape about using fame to get women

This is the President of the USA and some here love this guy, and one wonders why 8-)

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Trump is hurting christianity

Post #13

Post by Danmark »

One can argue that Trump isn't like Hitler; one can even argue he isn't a racist or that he champions Christians. In fact this is what Jerry Falwell Jr said recently, “Conservatives & Christians need to stop electing ‘nice guys.’ They might make great Christian leaders but the United States needs street fighters like..." Trump.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... is/593353/

BUT, you can not argue he is good for Christian values or Christianity itself. Yes, he makes some Christians feel good because they think he is on THEIR side, but this has nothing to do with true Christian values or helping people to find Christ.

As Peter Wehner wrote:
"... what is most personally painful to me as a person of the Christian faith is the cost to the Christian witness. Nonchalantly jettisoning the ethic of Jesus in favor of a political leader who embraces the ethic of Thrasymachus and Nietzsche—might makes right, the strong should rule over the weak, justice has no intrinsic worth, moral values are socially constructed and subjective—is troubling enough.

But there is also the undeniable hypocrisy of people who once made moral character, and especially sexual fidelity, central to their political calculus and who are now embracing a man of boundless corruptions."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... is/593353/

Evangelicals should ask themselves, "Do we want to feel some one is cheering for us, or do we want win people to Jesus Christ and promote Christian values?"

RightReason
Under Probation
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 6:26 pm
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #14

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 11 by Danmark]
Virtually NO 'Christian' goes that far.* Still, there is no comparison between Pelosi who shares the Christian values of helping the poor, and DJT who is an absolute materialist, cheater, felon, sexual predator and habitual liar.
Are you sure about that? I would think it a grave sin for someone to condone and support the killing of an innocent human being just because someone else personally finds him/her inconvenient. Adultery and treating women like sex objects are sins too. Those things aren’t cool. But one involves implementing public policy showing support of mass genocide and the other involves personal sin that is not being held up as cool or good or right. I think that is the difference.

I think Trump is deeply flawed, but so far I have yet to see him push a policy or program that is immoral. Nancy Pelosi on the other hand proclaims to be Catholic yet supports the murder of the unborn. Trump has atleast apologized for some of his sins. Nancy seems oblivious to the evil she permits.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #15

Post by Danmark »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 11 by Danmark]
Virtually NO 'Christian' goes that far.* Still, there is no comparison between Pelosi who shares the Christian values of helping the poor, and DJT who is an absolute materialist, cheater, felon, sexual predator and habitual liar.
Are you sure about that? I would think it a grave sin for someone to condone and support the killing of an innocent human being just because someone else personally finds him/her inconvenient. Adultery and treating women like sex objects are sins too. Those things aren’t cool. But one involves implementing public policy showing support of mass genocide and the other involves personal sin that is not being held up as cool or good or right. I think that is the difference.

I think Trump is deeply flawed, but so far I have yet to see him push a policy or program that is immoral. Nancy Pelosi on the other hand proclaims to be Catholic yet supports the murder of the unborn. Trump has atleast apologized for some of his sins. Nancy seems oblivious to the evil she permits.
Claiming an abortion is the "murder" of a human being does not make it so. it is not either by law or by general morality. YOUR opinion of what is murder does not make it so. There is certainly no place in the bible that calls it murder. At most there are passages that suggest it may be a civil offense according to Hebrew law.

However, the Bible makes it crystal clear that adultery is a crime punishable by death. it never ceases to amaze me that the twisted morality of some 'righteous' Christians makes them condemn an abortion as murder, while they praise a serial adulterer and sexual predator whose policies have killed living children detained for crossing a border with their parents.

This faulty logic and absurd, inane 'morality' is why so many have no respect for Christianity as practiced by this segment of America. Trump is laughing at how he duped evangelicals.

RightReason
Under Probation
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 6:26 pm
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #16

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to Danmark]
Claiming an abortion is the "murder" of a human being does not make it so.
Correct. Science/fact makes it so.

it is not either by law or by general morality.

Whether it is by law is neither here nor there. Slavery use to be legal, but that does not mean it was morally good.
YOUR opinion of what is murder does not make it so.
Right. But the science is settled on the fact that an embryo is human life with its own unique DNA. And science confirms that life is a continuum. A 3 week old looks different from a 3 month old who looks different from a 3 year old who looks different from a 30 year old.

There is certainly no place in the bible that calls it murder.
Huh? . . .

*******

1. The Bible teaches that human life is different from other types of life, because human beings are made in the very image of God.


The accounts of the creation of man and woman in Genesis (Genesis 1:26-31; 2:4-25) tell us this: "God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27).

2. The Bible teaches that children are a blessing.

"Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).


3. The Bible teaches that the child in the womb is truly a human child, who even has a relationship with the Lord.


The phrase "conceived and bore" is used repeatedly (see Genesis 4:1,17) and the individual has the same identity before as after birth. "In sin my mother conceived me," the repentant psalmist says in Psalm 51:7. The same word is used for the child before and after birth (Brephos, that is, "infant," is used in Luke 1:41 and Luke 18:15.)


God knows the preborn child. "You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).


4. Scripture repeatedly condemns the killing of the innocent.


This flows from everything that has been seen so far. God’s own finger writes in stone the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).


The killing of children is especially condemned by God through the prophets.

5. The Bible teaches that God is a God of justice.

"Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36). "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12). "Love one another" (John 15:17).


Abortion is the opposite of these teachings. It is a reversal of justice. It is a destruction of the helpless rather than a rescue of them. If God’s people do not intervene to save those whose lives are attacked, then the people are not pleasing or worshiping Him.

6. Jesus Christ paid special attention to the poor, the despised, and those whom the rest of society considered insignificant.


He broke down the false barriers that people set up among themselves, and instead acknowledged the equal human dignity of every individual, despite what common opinion might say. Hence we see Him reach out to children despite the efforts of the apostles to keep them away (Matthew 19:13-15)


7. Scripture teaches us to love.


St. John says, "This is the message you have heard from the beginning: we should love one another, unlike Cain who belonged to the evil one and slaughtered his brother" (1 John 3:11-12)

No group of people is in more serious danger than the boys and girls in the womb. "If someone…sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in Him?" (1 John 3:17).


8. Life is victorious over death.


Abortion is death. Christ came to conquer death, and therefore abortion. "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full" (John 10:10).

https://www.priestsforlife.org/articles ... t-abortion

At most there are passages that suggest it may be a civil offense according to Hebrew law.

I couldn’t disagree more. The openness and love for life is a theme permeated throughout the Bible.

However, the Bible makes it crystal clear that adultery is a crime punishable by death.

You seriously think God is more angered at a person committing adultery than killing their unborn? I think Scripture is clear both would be unpleasing to God, the creator of life.

it never ceases to amaze me that the twisted morality of some 'righteous' Christians makes them condemn an abortion as murder, while they praise a serial adulterer and sexual predator whose policies have killed living children detained for crossing a border with their parents.
I don’t know many Christians who praise serial adulterers or sexual predators or who wish immigrants harm. I’d say that is the spin you are trying to give some of us. Like I said I loath Trump. I find him gross. I find Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi’s policies gross too.

As for your criticism of Trump’s immigration policies I hate to break it to you but people also died trying to cross the border during Obama’s presidency. And Obama’s administration also sometimes had to separate children from their parents. I find it very odd when people can’t honestly admit this. Immigration is a tough one. Everyone is against mistreating immigrants, but most also recognize it is actually immoral to not look out for the safety of American children and families too.
This faulty logic and absurd, inane 'morality' is why so many have no respect for Christianity as practiced by this segment of America.
Well, I would put that right back at you. I agree there is some faulty logic going on, but I see it from the other side. So, odd to think it is ok for one person to get to decide if another innocent person lives or dies based on the reasoning that that person simply finds the human being inconvenient. There is a huge logical discrepancy going on that I find mind boggling.


Trump is laughing at how he duped evangelicals.
Hmmm . . . maybe – I personally don’t find him smart enough to pull something like that off. I have to admit when I voted for Trump, I was wondering if he in fact would hold true to his pro life promises. It wouldn’t have surprised me if he didn’t, but he actually did. In fact, just yesterday we hear the Trump administration defunded Planned Parenthood. It’s about time! How PP gets government funding is ridiculous. They are the nation’s largest abortion provider, do not every provide mammograms (even though they lied and said they do), and have donated millions if not billions of dollars to democratic pro choice candidates. Why do we give money to a group that has millions/billions to give to someone else to keep them in business? That’s crazy!

Trump has also decreased the unemployment rate – in particular for African Americans. His policies are helping the poor. So, I guess if he has actually pulled one over on us, then I am missing it. Again, I still don’t like or completely trust the guy, but yes I think right now unfortunately he is the better alternative.

I also think there are some issues more important than others. We can’t begin to discuss how to improve education or the roads or even climate change if we don’t first protect the right to life. Without the right to life in the first place, none of those other things matter.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #17

Post by Danmark »

[Replying to post 16 by RightReason]

"Science" does not claim an embryo is human or that abortion is murder. This is your opinion, not science
With all your citations to the Bible, you could not find a single one that says a zygote or embryo is a human being or that an abortion is the murder of a person.

Genesis 2:7 is clear.
"Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."

The first human became a “living being� (nefesh hayah, “a living breath�) when God blew into its nostrils and it started to breathe. Human life begins when you start breathing, biblical writers thought. It ends when you stop. That’s why the Hebrew word often translated “spirit� (ruah) — “life force� might be a better translation — literally means “wind� or “breath.�
Your OPINION about what the Bible says counts for nothing.

Reverence for life is not the same as reverence for a fetus or embryo.

Most telling is Exodus 21:22-25, which talks about a case where a pregnant woman intercedes in a fight between her husband and another man and suffers injuries that cause her to miscarry. Injuries to the woman prompt the normal penalties for harming another human being: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. Killing the woman is murder, a capital crime.

The miscarriage is treated differently, however — as property loss, not murder. The assailant must pay a fine to the husband. The law of a life for a life does not apply. The fetus is important, but it’s not human life in the same way the pregnant woman is.

Thus, even scripture tells you, you are wrong.

RightReason
Under Probation
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 6:26 pm
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #18

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 17 by Danmark]
"Science" does not claim an embryo is human or that abortion is murder. This is your opinion, not science
Again, I am afraid that is the scientific consensus.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.htmll


With all your citations to the Bible, you could not find a single one that says a zygote or embryo is a human being

Why would I need to find the word embryo in the Bible. The bible is not a scientific treatise. God created the natural world we live in. This natural world has natural laws. That is science. All men are subject to the laws of nature, whether they believe in God or not.

Also, nowhere does Scripture say Scripture alone is our authority. Nowhere! Because Scripture itself shows Jesus and His disciples saying they had much more tell us. Jesus left us His Church and told us to listen to her. And guess what? The Church says life begins at conception and abortion is wrong. That’s all we need to know.

Genesis 2:7 is clear.
"Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."

The first human became a “living being� (nefesh hayah, “a living breath�) when God blew into its nostrils and it started to breathe. Human life begins when you start breathing, biblical writers thought.
We need to read the Bible as a whole. I cited an awful lot of Bible that adds to the beautiful passage you posted above. Passages that refer to the baby in the womb as a human being. Also, if life didn’t begin until you were breathing, then you are saying a 9 month baby in the womb is not a human being until he exits the womb. That is scientifically ridiculous. You are determining whether the baby is a human being or not by location and using a matter of inches to determine the difference. That’s silly and no not something biblical writers ever believed.

Reverence for life is not the same as reverence for a fetus or embryo.
Of course it is. That’s why pregnant women take care of themselves, don’t smoke, eat healthy. It is illogical to suggest otherwise. Again, you are saying we only owe reverence to the baby in the womb if we decide the baby is of value to us. This sounds like genocide. Whether a person wants the baby or does not want the baby does not change that the baby is a baby.

Thus, even scripture tells you, you are wrong.
I suggest it is the other way around. Scripture, the Church, the natural world, and science all confirm my position. Yours is anti-Scripture AND anti-science.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #19

Post by Danmark »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 17 by Danmark]
"Science" does not claim an embryo is human or that abortion is murder. This is your opinion, not science
Again, I am afraid that is the scientific consensus.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.htmll
Your logic and conclusions are as broken as your link.

There is little scientific debate that individual human life begins at conception. There is no scientific consensus about the definition of a person, because that is not a question for science. There is much debate about the definition of personhood, some granting that to animals other than homo sapiens. Others would exclude homo sapiens that have no meaningful brain function.

For example, McCormick and Irving disagree:

"I contend in this paper that the moral status and specifically the controversial issue of personhood is related to the attainment of developmental individuality (being the source of one individual) ... It should be noted that at the zygote stage the genetic individual is not yet developmentally single a source of only one individual. As we will see, that does not occur until a single body axis has begun to form near the end of the second week post fertilization when implantation is underway."25 (Emphasis added.)

Sounds very scientific. However, McCormicks embryology is already self-contradictory. Implantation takes place at 5-7 days. The "single body axis" to which he refers is the formation of the primitive streak, which takes place at 14 days. McCormick often confuses these different periods in his writings.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

Your error is in equating science with ethics or definitions that are outside the realm of science. So then you turn to the Bible, and as previously established the Bible does not support your absolutist position. But even if it did, YOUR view of YOUR religion hardly makes the case for all. You are correct, just because the law declares a thing so does not make that ethically true for all. However, you have been using a legal term, 'murder.' And you have been using that legally defined term incorrectly.

What I find amazingly inconsistent and reprehensible is that so many who claim to revere human life in the form of a seconds old zygote that cannot live except inside another's body, blithely support GOP policy that tortures, kills, and inhumanly treats live human children because they are in custody as asylum seekers in U.S. concentration camps at the border.

RightReason
Under Probation
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 6:26 pm
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?

Post #20

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to Danmark]
Your logic and conclusions are as broken as your link.

There is little scientific debate that individual human life begins at conception. There is no scientific consensus about the definition of a person, because that is not a question for science.
I agree the personhood argument is not based on science. But in your previous post you said science does not claim an embryo is human to which I responded actually it does. There is scientific consensus that an embryo is human life with its own unique set of DNA.

The personhood argument is an illogical one because a living being does not have to be a person to have value or rights. Heck, dogs have rights and even the eggs of bald eagles have value. So, the whole personhood argument is pretty much a non starter from the get go. The rightness or wrongness of abortion is a moral issue and only one question needs to be answered, “Is it ok to kill an innocent human being?�

Here is a great argument showing the illogic of your position . . .



There is much debate about the definition of personhood

Sure and it can be demonstrated that it is an illogical argument to use in the abortion debate.
Your error is in equating science with ethics or definitions that are outside the realm of science.
Nope. We use science to know what is right/good vs. wrong/bad. Because facts matter. We can know from science that when a woman is pregnant there exists a developing human being inside of her. Now we need to ask, does a human being have rights/value? Well, it is pretty obvious that EVERYONE recognizes a human being has rights/value -- this is intrinsic to being a human being.

Please note too that denying a certain group of human beings rights/value has tragically been done throughout history. We tried to deny rights/value to African Americans, to Jewish people, to the disabled, to the elderly, etc. by believing it’s ok to kill them. This is always wrong. It is always scary when we make attempts to dehumanize and devalue human beings. The personhood argument is nothing new. It was used to say black people were only worth 2/5 of a person. It was used to refer to Jews as inferior and not fully human. In the Rwanda genocide it was used to call a certain race cockroaches and parasites (sound familiar?) as an attempt to dehumanize them. Again, this is always disgusting.

So then you turn to the Bible
I turned to the Bible because you did in your original post. Let me refresh your memory:

You asked, “Are his policies and personal character consistent with Christian values?� and then you went on to quote the Bible in a follow up post, 'Jesus said to him,
“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.�'

__ Matthew 19:21





and as previously established the Bible does not support your absolutist position
I think you got that backwards. I believe it was established that the Bible does support the evil of abortion. Thou shall not kill.
But even if it did, YOUR view of YOUR religion hardly makes the case for all.
I don’t need my religion to make the case for the wrongness of abortion. I only brought it up because you did. And because the topic of the thread asks about Christian values. Abortion is wrong whether you believe in God or not. We can know the wrongness of abortion from the Bible, the Church, and natural law or the world we live in just like I already explained.

You are correct, just because the law declares a thing so does not make that ethically true for all. However, you have been using a legal term, 'murder.' And you have been using that legally defined term incorrectly.


I don’t think so. Again, I don’t care if the state recognizes abortion as murder or not. It is murder by the definition of murder – purposely killing an innocent human being. What do you think the pregnant woman is having? A cat? A parasite? We need to be intellectually honest.

If you want to claim that it is ok to kill an innocent human being then own it. But you don’t get to pretend we are talking about a clump of cells – that is simply unscientific and inaccurate. A plant is a clump of cells, but we aren’t talking about a houseplant, are we?

What I find amazingly inconsistent and reprehensible is that so many who claim to revere human life in the form of a seconds old zygote that cannot live except inside another's body, blithely support GOP policy that tortures, kills, and inhumanly treats live human children because they are in custody as asylum seekers in U.S. concentration camps at the border.
Strawman. I don’t value an immigrant less than I value a human embryo. They are both human beings with intrinsic value/rights. It is you who 1) seem to be unable to value the baby in the womb and 2) claim Christians support the torture and killing of asylum seekers. No Christian I know supports treating asylum seekers poorly. You are not presenting the truth or facts – just inflammatory rhetoric.

Post Reply