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otseng
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:32 pm  What is the Biblical view of hell? Reply with quote

SallyF wrote:

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.


Divine Insight wrote:

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.


Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:46 pm
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Like this post (1): JehovahsWitness
otseng wrote:

[Replying to post 8 by shnarkle]

Sorry, it was a typo, it should be "grave". I've modified "grace" to "grave".

As for what Sheol is translated to, it's from:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7585&t=KJV

Sheol was translated as grave 31 times in the KJV.

Are you suggesting Sheol should never be translated as grave?


No, I'm pointing out that "the grave" is being distinguished by "a grave" by not just the authors, but the translators as well. The point is that it is the usage of the word that is the best factor in determining its meaning.

It's a similar story with "the dead" which isn't the same thing as referring to a dead body.

A dead body exists, but the person who once lived is gone. They no longer identify with a physical body. For all practical intents and purposes, they don't exist. There is no place for them to rest like their physical body rests in a grave.

There is the dead, and the grave, but neither of these is referring to a grave or a dead body.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:48 pm
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brianbbs67 wrote:

How many are familiar with the teaching that hell was extreme cold? I believe the RCC taught this in the dark ages.



In Dante's Divine Comedy; the Inferno, the center of hell contains Satan frozen up to his waist in a frozen lake, presumably so ha can't reproduce.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:22 am
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WHAT ACCORDING TO THE NJBLE IS THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD?




DEATH The bible does not support the teachings of consciouse survival of any part of a person after their physical body ceases to function. Physical death is always presented as the end of all consciousness (the end of all thought, action and feeling). When a person dies, they cease to exist and are in the exact same state as they were before they were conceived or created, in short a dead person no longer exists anywhere as a conscious feeling thinking being. For more details on the condition of the dead please see the following LINK: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=832139#832139

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SOUL The expression "immortal soul" does not once appear in the bible. A "soul" is without exception presented as a breathing, physical animal or human or the the life they enjoy. For more details on the bjblical meaning of SOUL please see the following LINKS: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=965894#965894
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=832205#832205

SPIRIT As in English, the word spirit is used in a variety of ways it can refer to a person's prevailing attitude ("Get into the spirit of things", "there's the spirit!", "She showed great spirit") but basically it comes from the Hebrew word for "wind" and refers to unseen force or active power. In the bible it often is used to refer to God's power, the force he uses to get things done. It is this power or force that animates all living breathing creatures. When the physical body dies, the body no longer needs that it's "power supply" and it is "withdrawn.For more details on the biblical meaning of the word SPIRIT see the following LINK: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=877560#877560



SPIRIT and SOUL are not synonyms.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:26 am
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Continued from post # 13 by JehovahsWitness

WHAT IS BIBLE "HELL"?

The word translated in the many English bibles as "hell" simply refers to the common grave of mankind. Both good and bad people are depicted in scripture as going to "hell" .



The English word for hell has traditionally been translated from three different words causing much confusion amongst bible readers. For more details on the biblical meaning of the word HELL see the following LINK: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=959863#959863

    SHEOL The Hebrew word simply refers to "the grave", where all physical creatures (animal or human) end up. It is never associated with activity but rather with inactivity and lack of consciousness. For more details on the bjblical meaning of SHEOL please see the following LINK:
    http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=767709#767709

    HADES : The equivalent of "sheol" (see above for definition/description)

    GEHENNA A local garbage dump outside Jerusalem during the first century, used by Jesus as a symbol* for death (non-existence) without hope of a resurrection. NOTE In the bible FIRE is often used, not as a symbol of immortal existence under torturous conditions but rather as a symbol of complete and utter annihilation; the book of Revelation also makes use of such language. For more details on the biblical meaning of GEHENNA please see the following LINK:
    http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=373876#373876

    TARTARUS Used exclusively by Peter in his letter this word is used to described the abased condition of the demons rather than a specific location. It should not be translated as hell as it has no relation to either SHEOL or Hades as used elswhere jn scripture and is not used as a synonym. For more details on the biblical meaning of TARTARUS please see the following LINK:
    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004329



*ILLUSTRATIONS Jesus gave a number of illustrations speaking about the spiritual state of those condemned by God which instead of being read as such, have been used out of context as refering to the torture of people after their physical death.



FURTHER READING

Quote:
What Is Hell? Is It a Place of Eternal Torment?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-hell/

What Really Is Hell?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002521

HELL: Definition
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989234

What Did Jesus Teach About Hell?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008802



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Quote:
Does not the bible not refer to "hell"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=373876#373876

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=843948#843948

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HEAVEN, HELL and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:39 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

The bible does not support the teachings of consciouse survival of any part of a person after their physical body ceases to function. Physical death is always presented as the end of all consciousness (the end of all thought, action and feeling). When a person dies, they cease to exist and are in the exact same state as they were before they were conceived or created, in short a dead person no longer exists anywhere as a conscious feeling thinking being.


A person is defined as "a man, woman or child", but the word comes from the word "persona" which is "a mask", or what is presented to the world. The bible describes Adam's body being created from the dirt, but there really isn't any description of Adam's persona being created by God. Instead Adam reflects God. Adam's persona is not his own, but the image of God. He doesn't present his own image, but God's image instead.

This image can't be Adam's body as God can't be compared to anything that is created. This image is a reflection, not of what is eternal, but of eternity which has no beginning or end. It can't be of what is eternal because God is not a "what" or a "thing". All things are created, therefore God cannot be a thing.

While I can see thoughts, feelings, and ideas ceasing to exist after the body dies. It doesn't then follow that consciousness ceases as well. Unless you are a thought, feeling, or idea, you shouldn't feel any need to identify with them. The assumption is that this consciousness is the property of the person who is living, but the bible tells us that it's all God's everything that is created is God's, but is consciousness created? Just because one is conscious of a thought doesn't then mean consciousness ceases when thought ceases. The same is true for feelings, and ideas. It's a non sequitur.

Is God conscious? If so, then God's consciousness must be eternal, no? If man reflects God's consciousness then this reflection is derived from eternity, but if man reflects himself instead, then the self must die with what it is identified with.

To assume that the consciousness is identified with the body isn't necessarily the case, and I know of no place where the bible states that it is. It seems that it is the self that identifies with the consciousness, and Christ corrects this error by telling his disciples to "deny yourself".

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:20 am
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shnarkle wrote:

There is the dead, and the grave, but neither of these is referring to a grave or a dead body.

What is the difference between "the grave" and "a grave"? Don't they both refer to someplace someone is buried?

Verses exist where "the grave" is not Sheol. So, I don't see the point in differentiating between "the grave" and "a grave".

2Sa 3:32 - And they buried Abner in Hebron: and the king lifted up his voice, and wept at the grave (qeber) of Abner; and all the people wept.

Of course, words can also have a symbolic meaning in addition to a literal meaning. In the case of Sheol, it can refer to a literal physical grave or a symbolic grave in the afterlife.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:36 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

The bible does not support the teachings of consciouse survival of any part of a person after their physical body ceases to function.

Interesting post, but the Bible does teach survival after a person dies. Here's some verses:

Saul summoned the spirit of Samuel with the witch at Endor.

1Sa 28:15
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.

Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:09 am
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otseng wrote:

shnarkle wrote:

There is the dead, and the grave, but neither of these is referring to a grave or a dead body.

What is the difference between "the grave" and "a grave"? Don't they both refer to someplace someone is buried?


No, that's why it is important to look at how these terms are being used. "The dead" refers to someone who is no longer alive, but not necessarily to their physical body which is buried in a grave, tomb, etc.

Quote:
Verses exist where "the grave" is not Sheol. So, I don't see the point in differentiating between "the grave" and "a grave".


Because "a grave" is "keber". Sheol is not "a grave".

2Sa 3:32 - And they buried Abner in Hebron: and the king lifted up his voice, and wept at the grave (qeber) of Abner; and all the people wept.

Of course, words can also have a symbolic meaning in addition to a literal meaning. In the case of Sheol, it can refer to a literal physical grave or a symbolic grave in the afterlife.[/quote]

I disagree. A Symbol can never be literal. Symbols are, by definition, figurative.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:19 am
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otseng wrote:

JehovahsWitness wrote:

The bible does not support the teachings of consciouse survival of any part of a person after their physical body ceases to function.

Interesting post, but the Bible does teach survival after a person dies. Here's some verses:

Saul summoned the spirit of Samuel with the witch at Endor.

1Sa 28:15
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.

Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:


It's against God's commandments to summon familiar spirits, or to inquire from a witch. To think that Samuel would do something like this is ridiculous. To think that Samuel's spirit would be summoned by a witch is even more so.

A familiar spirit is referred to as a familiar spirit because they impersonate those who have died. They seem familiar, but they aren't who they seem to be. The bible points out that Saul has gone to consult with a witch. This should be the first clue that we're not dealing with the actual spirit of Samuel. Samuel would never participate in this nonsense and was never subjected to demonic or occult power. There is no good reason to assume otherwise.

The transfiguration is a literary device showing that Christ upholds the personification of the law and the prophets.

Another popular example is that of Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man which portrays the beggar residing in the bosom of Abraham, but here again just as with witches, were dealing with doctrines of mystery Babylon that were brought back after the captivity. This is not just seen from the bible, but historically as well.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:41 am
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Re: What is the Biblical view of hell?

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shnarkle wrote:
There are three words in the Greek that are translated to English as "hell". There is "Hades" which is translated from the Hebrew "Sheol" which means "the grave".


Christians tend to conflate all of these differing terms.


Indeed. Hell used to mean the same thing as Sheol and Hades as the waiting room of the dead..waiting for a resurrection or the judgement...many rooms, some stark and some paradisiacal. Verse suport is Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. which implies they came from there to live ON the earth, sown into mankind by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. That some interpretations of the bible try to hide this fact of their RETURN is immaterial, the word means return.

But after Danté, hell came to mean the outer darkness, that place of eternal solitude from GOD's presence.

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