What is the Biblical view of hell?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20496
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 335 times
Contact:

What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

SallyF wrote: The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.
Divine Insight wrote: In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.
Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Post #471

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:

Yes, the dead are sleeping, as Christ described Lazarus as having fallen asleep. ... Sleep may be a euphemism for (the first) death, but people who are sleeping do not cease to exist.

...Anyone who recieves the judgment of the second death DOES cease to exist.
So apart from one condition is permanent and the other temporary, what in real terms is different between the two?

One you say ceases to exist, the other does not cease to exist, so the two must be different substantially different in some way otherwise the terms are (existence/inexistsnce) are meaningless. Does the first still have some kind of body, is he breathing? Dreaming? Can he be located and moved from one location to another (in either realm)? What part of the person in the first death exists that in the second death doesn't exist (thus distinguishing between the two)?



JW

I believe it is covered in post 432 which you quoted partially from above. I'll quote the relevant portions:
We - the person we truly are (on the inside) - are not these bodies that we dwell within.

2Peter 2:13

I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,



Peter clearly distinguishes himself from his body (... as long as "I" live in the tent of this body). That is what this body is - a tent, a vessel, that we dwell within. We are spirits, in clay vessels. This body is the "clothing" - the long garment of skin - that God gave to Adam and Eve, that has sin and death in it. In contrast the "white robe" (Rev 6:9-11; Rev 7:9) is the new body that we will have (that has no sin or death in it, but only life); when we are changed "in a twinkling" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).



**


We do not cease to exist upon our deaths. Upon our death - the spirit that we are - goes either to the world of the dead (Sheol/Hades/"hell")... or, if we are in Christ, the spirit that we are goes 'under the altar' (Rev 6:9-11).

We are not bodies with spirits (or souls).

We are spirits with bodies.



If I am understanding your question correctly, the spirit that we are (the person we truly are on the inside), sleeps when we die - descending to the world of the dead (Hades) or going "under the altar" in the spiritual realm (if we are in Christ). So there is something that exists - the spirit that we are, which is housed in the tent of this body.



The second death (the lake of fire) destroys both body and soul (spirit). This would be why the second death must be eternal - there is nothing of the person to resurrect. As for Hades (the world of the dead)... at the second resurrection, after Hades has given up the dead that are IN it, then Hades is also cast into the lake of fire and is destroyed (since there is no further need for such a place).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Post #472

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 471 by tam]

So would it be fair to say that you believe ...

All human have a SPIRIT, an invisible part of them that carries some part of their conscious existence and inhabits their physical body, like a man living jn a tent.

When their physical body decays after physical death this spirit survives but in a sleeping/ unconscious state of continued life. If after the spirit is AWAKENED and again able to communicate and act, he is judged unworthy of life this invisible spirit is destroyed and ceases to exist. If not they continue living as before but this time conscious.
Is that a fair summary of your belief?




JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
bluegreenearth
Guru
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Manassas, VA
Has thanked: 681 times
Been thanked: 470 times

Post #473

Post by bluegreenearth »

The problems with determining the Biblical view of hell originate with the inconsistent descriptions of hell written by different Biblical authors at different times in languages that can no longer be properly translated or interpreted as well as the fact that such extraordinary claims are unfalsifiable. There is no conceivable way to rule-out any theologians perspective of hell as being non-Biblical. As such, the only intellectually honest perspective of a Biblical hell we can support is one of agnosticism.

Eloi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1775
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 213 times
Contact:

Post #474

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to post 473 by bluegreenearth]

Even if there are too many beliefs about "hell", it does not mean that the Scriptures are not clear about it. Most of the beliefs that religions teach are not originated from the Bible, even if they try to justify them with the Bible.

When a person is interested on what Bible really teaches, he goes to the Bible to learn, not to teologians. The word "hell" is not biblical, and the concept asociated with that word is not biblical. The truth about these matters is in the Bible.

The Bible uses diferent words to describe the place where dead go, and none of them is related to a place of fire where people's soul is tortured. That is a doctrine originated in other religions that have nothing to do with Israel or Christianity (the way Jesus and his followers teached).

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Post #475

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:

We are not bodies with spirits (or souls).

We are spirits with bodies.



If I am understanding your question correctly, the spirit that we are (the person we truly are on the inside), sleeps when we die - descending to the world of the dead (Hades) or going "under the altar" in the spiritual realm (if we are in Christ). So there is something that exists - the spirit that we are, which is housed in the tent of this body.



The second death (the lake of fire) destroys both body and soul (spirit). This would be why the second death must be eternal - there is nothing of the person to resurrect. As for Hades (the world of the dead)... at the second resurrection, after Hades has given up the dead that are IN it, then Hades is also cast into the lake of fire and is destroyed (since there is no further need for such a place).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
I am somewhat surprised that you have not been able to distinguish "soul" from "spirit." We have discussed this at length. The "soul" is the complete person, everything about him, including his flesh, his blood, his thinking ability. The "spirit" is not something that lives within us and departs at death, consciously, to live on somewhere else. It is the breath of life from God that keeps us alive. It is not a conscious person that lives on, even after death.

God told us that when we die we will "return to the ground." Death is the payment for our sinful state. That is why we need Christ's sacrifice. (Genesis 3:19; Romans 6:23)

God wasn't fooling around when he created humans. His purpose was that we live on the earth forever. Adam and Eve would still be here, and would always be here, if they had remained faithful. It is clear that Jehovah's purpose has not changed. We are physical beings with God's spirit---His life-giving breath---keeping us alive, as physical human beings.

"For this is what Jehovah says, the Creator of the heavens, the true God, the One who formed the earth...Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah, and there is no one else." (Isaiah 45:18)

"As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, but the earth he has given to the sons of men." (Psalm 115:16)

"Those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth...and they will live forever on it." (Psalm 37:9b & 29)


When we die we really die. "Sleeping" was how Jesus described it because the person is not conscious of anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5), and he could bring them back to life in an instant, as if they had not been dead at all. But people who die ARE REALLY DEAD. God is not playing some game with us. He said that humans would die, and to die means NO MORE LIFE. We reject the Devil's argument that humans "really do not die." (Gen. 3:4)

There is nothing in the Bible that shows that the dead go anywhere after they die. "Hades" is the grave, and the "altar" described in Revelation is purely metaphorical. Most everything in Revelation is symbolic.

I hope this is helpful.

Eloi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1775
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 213 times
Contact:

Post #476

Post by Eloi »

Onewithin said:
I am somewhat surprised that you have not been able to distinguish "soul" from "spirit." We have discussed this at length. The "soul" is the complete person, everything about him, including his flesh, his blood, his thinking ability. The "spirit" is not something that lives within us and departs at death, consciously, to live on somewhere else. It is the breath of life from God that keeps us alive. It is not a conscious person that lives on, even after death.
I just cited this part of your comment to say something about the same idea. I totally agree with all you just commented before.

The idea about this point is that some believers think Jesus' spirit went out from him alive, and they say this Jesus' spirit resurrected Jesus' body at the third day. That is really confusing, cause if Jesus' spirit resurrected Jesus' body, then there would be two Jesuses, and it would be not Father, Son and spirit, as they say, but Father, Jesus spirit, Jesus body alive, and spirit, four ...

The only way we can understand Jesus' resurrection is that we understand what really means Jesus was dead.

Acts 2:24 But God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it. (...) 31 he [David] saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Haʹdes nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.


Everything is related: death, dead state, resurrection, etc. If there is only one aspect that is misunderstood, the correct understanding of all biblical truth is compromised.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Post #477

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 475 by onewithhim]

There is nothing in the Bible that shows that the dead go anywhere after they die. "Hades" is the grave, and the "altar" described in Revelation is purely metaphorical. Most everything in Revelation is symbolic.

There is plenty in the Bible to show that the dead go somewhere after they die. The WTS simply teaches (in error) that all those many verses and descriptions are metaphorical or symbolic.




**


As for soul and spirit, of course spirit can refer to "holy spirit" that God gives (through Christ)... - as well as the Spirit that Christ IS (and that God IS - and that we ARE as well).



When referring to the spirit/soul in my previous post, I was speaking in the same way that Christ spoke here:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in [hell]. Matt 10:28

He has made an obvious distinction between the soul and the body (regardless of what word the scribes used).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Eloi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1775
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 213 times
Contact:

Post #478

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to post 477 by tam]

There is nothing symbolic on these words:

Psalm. 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.

User avatar
bluegreenearth
Guru
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Manassas, VA
Has thanked: 681 times
Been thanked: 470 times

Post #479

Post by bluegreenearth »

Eloi wrote: [Replying to post 473 by bluegreenearth]

Even if there are too many beliefs about "hell", it does not mean that the Scriptures are not clear about it. Most of the beliefs that religions teach are not originated from the Bible, even if they try to justify them with the Bible.

When a person is interested on what Bible really teaches, he goes to the Bible to learn, not to teologians. The word "hell" is not biblical, and the concept asociated with that word is not biblical. The truth about these matters is in the Bible.

The Bible uses diferent words to describe the place where dead go, and none of them is related to a place of fire where people's soul is tortured. That is a doctrine originated in other religions that have nothing to do with Israel or Christianity (the way Jesus and his followers teached).
Your claim that the existence of too many beliefs about hell does not mean the Scriptures are not clear is itself another interpretation. When anyone consults the Bible to learn something, they must interpret the meaning of the translated and potentially mistranslated words on the page in front of them since the original intent of the author is lost to history. Sure, in many instances, we can safely assume a plain reading of some Biblical statements is what the author intended for us. However, for many important Biblical issues, the only thing that is clear is the existence of multiple equally plausible interpretations of Scripture which can be neither proved nor disproved.

Eloi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1775
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 213 times
Contact:

Post #480

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to post 479 by bluegreenearth]

Understanding what the Bible really teaches depends on how much of what the Bible says as a whole the reader knows. Even if the Bible is a collection of 66 books, everything it says is in harmony, and that can be understood only with a real study of everything it says, not reading a single page ...

Post Reply