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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:32 pm  What is the Biblical view of hell? Reply with quote

SallyF wrote:

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.


Divine Insight wrote:

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.


Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 501: Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:59 pm
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tam wrote:

...I stopped worrying about the doctrines that men teach, and I simply listened to and followed my Lord.

The problem with that is, God uses men (some, not all, for sure) to teach others. Following the Lord is all well and good, but if you're saying you disregard anything that ever came from any other human being regarding God's Word, then that's a problem. Iron sharpens iron, as the Proverb says; it's ultimately the work of God, of course, but God uses people to aid in the sanctification of other people. We build each other up in the Lord.

tam wrote:

Matthew 25 is not speaking about the second death (the lake of fire).

I agree, it's talking about the Judgment. Verse 41 does talk about the consequences for those sheep on His left, though. They will be sent, with the devil and his angels, into the eternal fire, and eternal punishment (46); which is the second death. Revelation 20 is also talking about the Judgment (there are not two Judgments), and the result is the same; each is judged according to his deeds (20:13-14), and those on the wrong side of Jesus -- on His left, as in Matthew 25 -- join the devil who deceived them (and his angels) in the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also, where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (20:10).

It's interesting that you don't acknowledge that the Jesus's parable regarding the wheat and the tares is not applicable, here. We do, however, read in Matthew 13 that "both (are) to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest (Jesus) will say to the reapers, 'First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn', and a few verses later, "just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age." The Judgment is clearly in view, here, also.

tam wrote:

Matthew 25 is speaking about the outer darkness - outside of the Kingdom.

I agree with this. Yes, the place of outer darkness, the lake of fire... they're one and the same. Neither are literal, but rather portray different aspects of hell. "Outer darkness" denotes the total absence of God's grace, and "lake of fire" denotes God's all-encompassing judgment.

tam wrote:

The sheep and the goats for instance are people who are alive when Christ returns, and then separated - some being invited into the Kingdom, some being cast out, into the darkness (outside the Kingdom). This begins when my Lord returns, at the start of the "thousand years".

I agree with everything here except for the "at the start of the thousand years" part. As I said, we are in the midst of the thousand years -- which is not a literal thousand-year period but the fullness of time between Christ's ascension and return, the time in which all of Israel (Jew and Gentile) will be brought in (Romans 11). In this way, all of Israel will be saved.

What also needs a little clarification is the first thing you say here. Yes, the sheep and the goats are alive -- everyone. This is after the resurrection has occurred and before the Judgment. Then the Judgment will ensue, and... see above.

tam wrote:

These people have not even experienced a first death!

Well, it includes those who have experienced the first death (physical death) and those who have not.

tam wrote:

The judgment in Revelation 20 on the other hand... this does not occur until the end of the "thousand years", at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead).

Sorry, but incorrect. I agree, though, that just my disagreement does not make it incorrect. It's incorrectness makes it incorrect. Very Happy

tam wrote:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.


The people in Matthew 25 are alive when Christ returns.

Well sure, I agree! All will be alive, those who are still alive AND those who have been resurrected. All.

tam wrote:

Adam and Eve were not banished to Hades.

Agreed; I never said that. I merely made the point that Adam and Eve did not cease to exist. But they did die spiritually. So too at the end of the age, those who are on the wrong side of Jesus (on His left; Matthew 25), will not cease to exist, but be banished from God's paradise.


tam wrote:

Again, Adam and Eve were not cast into Hades.

Again, I didn't say they were.

tam wrote:

(the rich man in Hades was seeking a drop of water to ease his torment because there was no LIFE in that place; a drop of the water of LIFE would have eased that torment)

Yes, that's right, but none could be given. The torment continues forever; that's the point, tam.

tam wrote:

Quote:
There is nothing left of the person that could even BE resurrected.

Quote:
If that were true, it would be true of all those who physically died before the return of Jesus.

How so?

Surely you would agree that God can re-consitute the body, wouldn't you? All you have to do is read Ezekiel 37 (the valley of dry bones) to see that. Surely you would agree that for all those who have died more than a few weeks ago, their bodies have decomposed at least to the point of mere bones, if not dust, so in that sense, there's nothing left of the person that can be resurrected, and that's a lot of folks... But yet we know they will be resurrected, right? Well, it is right; not according to me, per se, but according to God via His Word.

tam wrote:

No one who has died (fallen asleep) from the beginning until now has been destroyed, because none have yet been cast into the lake of fire.

Um, I agree. I'm not sure why you think this would be germane to this conversation.

tam wrote:

Ahhh... the spirit has reminded me that many believe "Hades" and the "Lake of Fire" are the same place. So perhaps you have mistaken the lake of fire to BE the same as Hades (hell) as well. But Hades is not the Lake of Fire. Hades is a PLACE that is ALSO cast into the lake of fire. Hades is not cast into itself.

Tam. Any person with an IQ higher than 3 or 4 can read Revelation 20:14 and know that Hades is not synonymous with the lake of fire. I never said such a thing. Also, it seems that you're being a little too literal concerning some things; all these things are to be carefully handled, as you know.

Grace and peace to you, Tam.

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Peace to you,

Quote:
[quote="PinSeeker"]
tam wrote:

...I stopped worrying about the doctrines that men teach, and I simply listened to and followed my Lord.

The problem with that



There is no problem with that Pinseeker! If we are learning from Christ - and if we have an anointing from Him - then we need no man to be teaching us.

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:27


We can indeed help to build one another up in Christ (iron sharpening iron as you say)... but we should be holding all things (even from members of the Body of Christ) up to the Light that is Christ. Christ is the Truth - not me or you or anyone else. And we are supposed to test the inspired expressions, are we not? Against Christ (His word and teachings; ask Him for yourself); and against love (because nothing from God will be against love).



Quote:
tam wrote:

The sheep and the goats for instance are people who are alive when Christ returns, and then separated - some being invited into the Kingdom, some being cast out, into the darkness (outside the Kingdom). This begins when my Lord returns, at the start of the "thousand years".

I agree with everything here except for the "at the start of the thousand years" part. As I said, we are in the midst of the thousand years -- which is not a literal thousand-year period but the fullness of time between Christ's ascension and return, the time in which all of Israel (Jew and Gentile) will be brought in (Romans 11). In this way, all of Israel will be saved.



You believe the thousand years began at Christ's ascension (two thousand years ago)?

Yet before the thousand years begin, the following has to have happened:

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.


Has Satan been bound for the last two thousand years in the abyss, locked and sealed in that abyss to keep him from deceiving the nations?

How can that be true when Peter said:

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Or James:

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


Or Paul:

If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And if I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven it in the presence of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan should not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.


Peter makes it very clear that the devil is prowling around looking for someone to devour. If the Adversary is prowling around, he is not bound and chained in the abyss. None of the above sounds as though the devil is bound and chained in the abyss OR that he is no longer able to deceive the nations. Just the opposite in fact.

And Revelation 12 speaks about the devil (the dragon) having gone down to the earth, to make war against those who belong to Christ (since he cannot go after Christ).

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus].




Quote:
tam wrote:

These people have not even experienced a first death!

Well, it includes those who have experienced the first death (physical death) and those who have not.


Should this not disqualify this event (sheep and goats) from being the same event at Rev 20 then? Everyone being resurrected at Rev 20 are described as being dead.




And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.





Quote:
tam wrote:

Adam and Eve were not banished to Hades.

Agreed; I never said that. I merely made the point that Adam and Eve did not cease to exist.


But of course they did not cease to exist. They had not even died. Death entered into them, yes, from them having eaten from the tree of knowing good (life) and bad (death). But they were not cast into the lake of fire OR into hades. So why compare them to those who have died and descended to Hades (or who will receive the judgment and second death)?


Quote:
tam wrote:

(the rich man in Hades was seeking a drop of water to ease his torment because there was no LIFE in that place; a drop of the water of LIFE would have eased that torment)

Yes, that's right, but none could be given. The torment continues forever; that's the point, tam.


We can know for a fact that nothing in Hades ("hell") will continue forever because Hades must give up the dead IN IT. The dead are not then cast back into Hades afterward. They are cast into the lake of fire (the second death).



Quote:
tam wrote:

Quote:
There is nothing left of the person that could even BE resurrected.

Quote:
If that were true, it would be true of all those who physically died before the return of Jesus.

How so?

Surely you would agree that God can re-consitute the body, wouldn't you? All you have to do is read Ezekiel 37 (the valley of dry bones) to see that. Surely you would agree that for all those who have died more than a few weeks ago, their bodies have decomposed at least to the point of mere bones, if not dust, so in that sense, there's nothing left of the person that can be resurrected, and that's a lot of folks...


Bones are not nothing (even the dust from bones are not nothing). And the vision of the Valley of the dry bones has bones (and again, bones are not nothing). There has to be something to resurrect.



Quote:
Grace and peace to you, Tam.



Thank you pinseeker, and peace also to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 503: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:05 pm
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[Replying to post 497 by bluegreenearth]

I agree with much of what you say, however I think that we do have very early manuscripts that we can compare with later ones and detect corruptions in many cases. One example is I John 5:7. Earliest manuscripts do not show what the KJV says there: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This was an addition later on, as later manuscripts attest, because these words were not present in the earliest versions (which read: "For there are three witness bearers:" and then goes straight into verse 8---"the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.")

Therefore we ARE able to discern the corruption in most of the verses that seem to contradict other verses that, for example, clearly state that Jesus did not claim to be God. It is possible to learn what the writers were undoubtedly trying to get across to us.

As I said previously, when we take the time to study the Scriptures, really scrutinizing them, we can become apprised of the facts surrounding "hell." We can see that the KJV takes at least three different words with three different meanings and renders them all as "hell." When we know that the words are actually "Gehenna," "Hades," and "Tartarus," we can make informed decisions as to what "hell" actually is. We can see that it was a big mistake to translate all three of those words as "hell."

It's rather a cop-out to dismiss any possibility of understanding the Bible because we can't know what the writers were trying to say. We CAN know, and it is up to each one of us to search it out.




www.jw.org

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tam wrote:

If we are learning from Christ - and if we have an anointing from Him - then we need no man to be teaching us.

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:27

Ah, yes, and herein is the problem. This is a misuse of 1 John 2:27.

In order to understand this correctly, we need to be clear on what this “anointing” is; such an interpretation as what you seem to be espousing undercuts John’s message. Used in context, we see that John is informing his listeners/readers about how to deal with a group of false teachers that are claiming special knowledge. Those teachers have abandoned the gospel; they haven’t “let what [they] heard from the beginning abide in [them]”.

Special messages that lead to a claim of special and/or secret knowledge from God is the very problem that John is facing. What John means when he says that they have been “anointed by the Holy One” is that they have been given the Holy Spirit. Because John’s readers have received the Holy Spirit, they have within them all the knowledge they need. They don’t need something "new" or special, and thus need to remain faithful to the Gospel that they’ve already received. This is true of us today, too.

John is not saying here that his readers do not need anyone to teach them; such would be antithetical to his own message (and thus God's). Again, context is key. In verse 26 John says that he is writing these things “about those who are trying to deceive you”. It is in contrast to these deceivers that John writes verse 27; thus, his point is that they already have what they need (God's Word, the Bible, which contains the Gospel). So, when John says they do not need anyone to teach them the “anyone” is speaking of those those false teachers supposedly giving new revelations.

Again, we have the Spirit and we have gospel... we don’t need new stuff. So does this mean we don’t need teachers? Absolutely not. It is the same Christ who gave the Spirit that also gave some to be teachers (Ephesians 4:11); teaching is a spiritual gift! To imagine that Christ would have gifted the church with teachers that we do not need is preposterous. No, He gave us teachers because He knows we need them.

And in fact John is teaching them through his letter. But what ought to be noted is the way in which John is teaching them. This help us to see the function that teachers of the gospel are to have. Gospel teachers aren’t "new truth dispensers." We are dispensers of the very old truth. All believers are given the Spirit (that is John’s point) and when the gospel is proclaimed by teachers the Spirit within them affirms what is being taught.

Further, this tells us how teachers ought to be teaching. Our teachers are to lead people to a further grasp of the gospel. That’s it. If somebody starts teaching new and special things other than what's contained in God's Word, then nobody needs that person as a teacher. But if somebody is a teacher that is laboring to help people grab hold of Jesus and apply the gospel, then that person is much needed, both when John wrote his letter and today.

I'll deal with the rest of your post in a couple of separate responses.

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onewithhim wrote:

[Replying to post 497 by bluegreenearth]

I agree with much of what you say, however I think that we do have very early manuscripts that we can compare with later ones and detect corruptions in many cases. One example is I John 5:7. Earliest manuscripts do not show what the KJV says there: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This was an addition later on, as later manuscripts attest, because these words were not present in the earliest versions (which read: "For there are three witness bearers:" and then goes straight into verse 8---"the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.")

Therefore we ARE able to discern the corruption in most of the verses that seem to contradict other verses that, for example, clearly state that Jesus did not claim to be God. It is possible to learn what the writers were undoubtedly trying to get across to us.

As I said previously, when we take the time to study the Scriptures, really scrutinizing them, we can become apprised of the facts surrounding "hell." We can see that the KJV takes at least three different words with three different meanings and renders them all as "hell." When we know that the words are actually "Gehenna," "Hades," and "Tartarus," we can make informed decisions as to what "hell" actually is. We can see that it was a big mistake to translate all three of those words as "hell."

It's rather a cop-out to dismiss any possibility of understanding the Bible because we can't know what the writers were trying to say. We CAN know, and it is up to each one of us to search it out.


The first complete copy of a New Testament book appears around 200 A.D., and the earliest complete copy of the New Testament cannon (the Codex Sinaiticus) doesn't show up until the 4th century. Even if we just consider the manuscript from around 200 A. D., more than 150 years transpired since the events described by the text are supposed to have taken place. If you think a 150 years is not enough time for the original account to have been embellished, consider how much the UFO story from Roswell changed in just a 30 year time span after the first eyewitness reports were published. It went from a mediocre story about the discovery of wreckage from some unknown aircraft in 1947 to claims about extra-terrestrial alien bodies being autopsied by 1978. It is even more astonishing when we consider the Roswell story occurred at time when the actual eyewitnesses were still alive to be interviewed directly and at a time when photograph technology was already widely in use. Nevertheless, a vast majority of people (including myself) remain unconvinced by the Roswell claim which only occurred recently. However, we are supposed to be compelled to believe a less credible story written over 2,000 years ago?

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tam wrote:

You believe the thousand years began at Christ's ascension (two thousand years ago)?

Yes, I believe the Millennium of Revelation 20 to have begun... well, actually, not at His ascension, but after His completed work on the cross -- Jesus said, of course, "It is finished." I believe this to be the correct understanding of Revelation 20. The thousand years of Revelation 20 is a symbolic number denoting fullness and completeness rather than strictly 1000 (and not 999 and less or 1001 and more). It's used here in the same sort of context in which the cattle on the thousand hills being the Lord's in Psalm 50 -- the cattle on all the hills, of which there are far more than literally 1000, are His. Or like Psalm 105, where we read that God has remembered His covenant forever... the word which He commanded to a thousand generations -- to all generations. Or the thousands of thousands of Revelation 5, meaning, figuratively, the complete completeness of the angels around the Lord's throne. Or -- our some of our friends here will love this -- the one hundred and forty four thousand of Revelation 7, which actually is immeasurable by man in numbers, it is the completeness of each of the twelve (a Biblical number denoting completeness itself) tribes of God's Israel.

How long does the millennium last? Well, again, it began with the completed work of Christ on earth. Revelation 20 follows immediately after Revelation 19, which celebrates the triumph of the One who is “King of kings and Lord of lords” (v. 16), whose robe was dipped in blood (v. 13), and who now rules the nations with a rod of iron (v. 15). But when does it end? Revelation 20 presents it as continuing until the end of the age, when after a brief uprising by Satan, the final judgment takes place (20:7–11). That means that the evil one is bound from deceiving the nations until just before the conclusion of salvation history.

Why, then, does Revelation use the expression a thousand years? In terms of biblical numbers, ten represents fullness, and a thousand is ten times ten times ten, hence fullness times fullness times fullness. It seems to equal a vast number of years without being a precise chronology of human history. Nowhere else does Scripture limit the binding of Satan and the success of the church’s mission to a specific period of time before the end of the age. Moreover, there are other places in Scripture where the word thousand is used without being a literal number. In Psalm 50 this same number is employed in a different context, where it says that God owns “the cattle on a thousand hills” (v. 10). This could not mean that the only thing God owns in His creation is one thousand hills, for “the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof” (24:1). It is an expression for fullness. It is the same in Psalm 68:17, where the chariots of God are said to be “twice ten thousand.” It is highly unlikely that God has only twenty thousand active angels at his behest, for Christ on the cross could have called down twelve legions of angels (Matt. 26:53), which is far more than twenty thousand. The message in Psalms 50 and 68 is one of fullness, and it is the same in Revelation 20. One day, the fullness of the elect will be brought into the church, and then the end will come. It is not a matter of literally one thousand years, but of God’s secret timing as to the gathering of His people into union with Christ, however long that may take from our human perspective.

tam wrote:

Yet before the thousand years begin, the following has to have happened:

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.


Has Satan been bound for the last two thousand years in the abyss, locked and sealed in that abyss to keep him from deceiving the nations?

How can that be true when Peter said:

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Or James:

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


Or Paul:

If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And if I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven it in the presence of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan should not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.


Peter makes it very clear that the devil is prowling around looking for someone to devour. If the Adversary is prowling around, he is not bound and chained in the abyss. None of the above sounds as though the devil is bound and chained in the abyss OR that he is no longer able to deceive the nations. Just the opposite in fact.

And Revelation 12 speaks about the devil (the dragon) having gone down to the earth, to make war against those who belong to Christ (since he cannot go after Christ).

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus].

Ah, yes, the binding of Satan. A point of great controversy. Smile

Specifically, Revelation 20:3 relates that he is bound from deceiving the nations during this period. Something happens to Satan’s ability to keep the nations of earth blinded from seeing who God is, and what His Gospel means for them. As a result of Christ’s finished work in dying on the cross, in rising from the dead, in ascending to the Father, and in being crowned on the throne of glory, Satan lost his power to deceive the untold millions of pagans, whom he formerly kept blinded to God’s saving truth. In this way, he has been bound for 2000 or so years, and for now (though maybe not for much longer), such is still the case.

The ancient story of Job may give us some important insight into this massive reduction of Satan’s power over the heathen nations. Job 1 portrays Satan as possessing the ability to come into God’s immediate presence along with other angels, or “sons of God” (v.6). He used this place of power to cause great harm to Job. But according to what Christ says in the Gospels, Satan lost that privileged access to the heavenly courts as a result of the incarnation and work of Christ. In Luke 10:18–19, the seventy disciples return with great joy from their successful mission in preaching the gospel, healing the sick, and casting out demons. Christ then explains how they were able to accomplish these wonders: “He said to them, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven’” (v. 18). Jesus explains Satan’s fall in terms of Christian ministry: “Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you” (v. 19).

It is significant that the first beings to recognize the incarnate Christ, according to the gospel of Mark, were demons. Mark 1:24 and Luke 4:34 are among the passages that show the demons crying out in terror that the Holy One of God has come to torment them. Jesus explained that when He cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Matt. 12:28–29), it meant that the kingdom of God had come. In His work, He was binding the strong man (that is, the devil), who formerly had been keeping people in the dark and painful prison of unbelief, sin, and certain judgment.

After the Lord’s crucifixion and resurrection, and immediately before His ascension back to the Father, He commissioned the church to “go … and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (28:19). They would be able to do this because of Christ’s victory over Satan, who had long blinded the nations, for Jesus said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me’ (v. 18). Satan’s illegitimate power over the nations has been taken from him, and placed into the hands of Christ. Now the Christian church can do its work; it can engage in successful mission all over the world, bringing the good news of freedom from captivity to those who had long been in chains because of sin and unbelief.

Colossians 2:14–15 makes it clear what happened to the powers of evil through Christ’s ministry, especially what He accomplished on the cross: “(He) cancel(ed) the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.” This indicates that wicked powers were defeated in principle at the cross of Christ. When Jesus purged all of our sins on Calvary, something happened to Satan. The evil one lost his authority to keep people back from God. He was bound by what Jesus did.

The missionary journeys of Paul into Asia Minor, Greece, and Rome were successful in turning the once-darkened nations to the saving light of God in Christ on the basis of the binding of Satan. Paul says in Acts 28:28, “Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.” That has been true of all Christian missions and evangelism from that day to now.

So again, although the evil one still has limited power in a fallen world, it is far less than what he had when he was able to bind and blind all nations outside Israel. And believers can still overcome even Satan’s limited power, for James 4:7 commands us, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” Revelation 12:11 testifies of the embattled saints that “they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.” Revelation 20 presents the Millennium as continuing until the end of the age, when after a brief uprising by Satan, the final judgment takes place (20:7–11). That means that the evil one is bound from deceiving the nations until just before the conclusion of salvation history.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 507: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:37 pm
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Peace to you,


tam wrote:

Yet before the thousand years begin, the following has to have happened:

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.


Has Satan been bound for the last two thousand years in the abyss, locked and sealed in that abyss to keep him from deceiving the nations?

How can that be true when Peter said:

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Or James:

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


Or Paul:

If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And if I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven it in the presence of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan should not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.


Peter makes it very clear that the devil is prowling around looking for someone to devour. If the Adversary is prowling around, he is not bound and chained in the abyss. None of the above sounds as though the devil is bound and chained in the abyss OR that he is no longer able to deceive the nations. Just the opposite in fact.

And Revelation 12 speaks about the devil (the dragon) having gone down to the earth, to make war against those who belong to Christ (since he cannot go after Christ).

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus].



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Ah, yes, the binding of Satan. A point of great controversy. Smile

Specifically, Revelation 20:3 relates that he is bound from deceiving the nations during this period.



I am sorry, Pinseeker, but this is not what Rev 20:3 specifically states. Rev 20:3 states that Satan is bound AND locked AND sealed IN THE ABYSS. He is not on earth roaming about during the "thousand years". He is bound and locked and sealed in the Abyss, therefore, he cannot deceive the nations during those "thousand years".


And Rev 12 (from the last quoted verses in purple, in the quote box above) states that he on the earth and making war against "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus]".


The Adversary uses deception to wage that war of course - since as Christ said, the devil is a liar and the father of lies.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 508: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:50 pm
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bluegreenearth wrote:

2timothy316 wrote:

bluegreenearth wrote:


I accept that there are experts who have a better grasp of dead languages than the average person. However, the experts still lack a complete understanding of enough words and phrases to leave various interpretations open to debate.

These 'various interpretations' is where the danger is. Folks complete toss out what the words say and add their own 'various interpretations' to the Bible.

Are you familiar with exegesis and eisegesis?


The distinction between the terms exegesis and eisegesis turns out to be a bit trivial where Biblical interpretation is involved. As you know, exegesis is supposed to describe a critical explanation or interpretation of a text.

Exegesis is what we learn from the text. Also, how it relates to other scriptures. Context is considered in exegesis as well as setting. Interpretation comes only from that the text and reference scriptures say and little from the person's own ideas or dogma.
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Meanwhile, eisegesis is described as the process of interpreting a text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions. When it comes to ancient texts written in dead languages where the original intent of the authors are lost to history, subjective presuppositions are brought into to every interpretation of the texts. Granted, an eisegesis approach imports subjective perspectives to a greater degree. However, when it comes to the use of an exegesis approach in interpreting the Bible, eisegesis is unavoidable because the texts themselves have already been corrupted with the subjective perspectives of numerous ancient scribes who've gradually altered the content of the original texts to match their own or their supervisor's preferred theological interpretations.

Eisigesis is completely avoidable so long as we take the entire Bible into account. These so called 'corruptions' are easy to root out if we consider the Bible in its entirety. I have been able to study the Bible contently without the need for eisegesis, so I know the statement "eisegesis is unavoidable" is not true. Those that say eisigesis must be used is pushing their own agenda. In fact I ask that you give me any scripture that you think eisegesis must be used and I will use only the Bible or a reference work to explain what it means. Nothing will come from my own personal dogma.

The idea of a fiery Hell is one of these corruptions. It doesn't harmonize with the rest of the Bible. Eisegesis was used in its fabrication.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 509: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:04 pm
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tam wrote:

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tam wrote:

These people have not even experienced a first death!

Well, it includes those who have experienced the first death (physical death) and those who have not.


Should this not disqualify this event (sheep and goats) from being the same event at Rev 20 then? Everyone being resurrected at Rev 20 are described as being dead.

No, there is no disqualification. All who have previously physically died at the time of the Judgment are in view here. Sheep and goats included. All those who have experienced physical death -- the first death -- will join those who are still alive at that time of Christ's return, and each and all will be judged according to his deeds.

tam wrote:

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Adam and Eve were not banished to Hades.

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Agreed; I never said that. I merely made the point that Adam and Eve did not cease to exist.

But of course they did not cease to exist. They had not even died.

Oh, but they had. God told them they would die (He did not say "death would enter into them") the very day that they ate from the tree (Genesis 2:17); indeed, they did die-- spiritually, not physically. Far be it from any of us to believe, as Eve did, Satan's deception ("Did God really say...?" -- Genesis 3:1), or his outright lie ("You surely will not die!" -- Genesis 3:4), right?

tam wrote:

So why compare them to those who have died and descended to Hades (or who will receive the judgment and second death)?

Only to make the... well, really inarguable... point that those who have died have not ceased to exist, and also that those who experience the second death will also not cease to exist, just as Adam and Eve did not cease to exist when they died upon eating the fruit. Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden, and this is a picture, on a far lesser level, of course, of what will happen to those on Jesus's left at the Judgment. I did not literally "compare" the two in any way.

tam wrote:

We can know for a fact that nothing in Hades ("hell") will continue forever because Hades must give up the dead IN IT. The dead are not then cast back into Hades afterward. They are cast into the lake of fire (the second death).

It really is unhelpful to think of the lake of fire as a literal place; it is not. It is a symbol of God's eternal judgment. God, as you know, is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24). Yes, Hades and all its occupants will be cast into God's eternal judgment, and there will be none of God's grace in that place but only His condemnation.

tam wrote:

There has to be something to resurrect.

Did not God call into existence the universe from nothing, Tam? Surely, then, He can reconstitute one little human body (even a multitude of bodies) and reunite it (them) with its (their) spirit (spirits). And this He will do in the resurrection of those who have physically died and whose bodies have decomposed even to nothingness.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 510: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:14 pm
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tam wrote:

I am sorry, Pinseeker, but this is not what Rev 20:3 specifically states. Rev 20:3 states that Satan is bound AND locked AND sealed IN THE ABYSS. He is not on earth roaming about during the "thousand years". He is bound and locked and sealed in the Abyss, therefore, he cannot deceive the nations during those "thousand years".


And Rev 12 (from the last quoted verses in purple, in the quote box above) states that he on the earth and making war against "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus]".


The Adversary uses deception to wage that war of course - since as Christ said, the devil is a liar and the father of lies.

No need to apologize to me. Yes, it is what Revelation 20:3 states. This is the crux of the disagreement. Again, something happens (happened, actually, 2000 plus years ago) to Satan’s ability to keep the nations of earth blinded from seeing who God is, and what His gospel means for them. As a result of Christ’s finished work in dying on the cross, in rising from the dead, in ascending to the Father, and in being crowned on the throne of glory, Satan lost his power to deceive the untold millions of pagans, whom he formerly kept blinded to God’s saving truth. In this way, he is surely bound. But I understand your position.

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