No deal

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 7 by Zzyzx]

You cant agree to such a deal. You are of the opinion that you are God. That nothing is greater than you.

You wouldnt be on here if you knew with certainty that God doesnt exist. You wouldnt spend one minute defending the falsity of the Easter Bunny. Because you know there is no Easter bunny. God...you cant prove he doesn't exist. So you cant prove i am wrong for believing he exists.
We are in the same boat. Paddling in different directions. Going in circles. Here: ill share my virtual soda and sandwhich as we circle.


Edited to add: The 'deal' referred to a line in my signature which reads: "Make you a deal – If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods."

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 10 by Avoice]

Thanks for the virtual soda and sandwich

You cant agree to such a deal. You are of the opinion that you are God. That nothing is greater than you.

You are replying to a signature (that appears on each post below a short line) rather than to the question for debate. Signatures and screen names are NOT items of debate. However . . .

You wouldnt be on here if you knew with certainty that God doesnt exist. You wouldnt spend one minute defending the falsity of the Easter Bunny.

I certainly would challenge Easter Bunny tales if they were being used to:

Pass legislation that affects my society
Collect funds to build palaces of worship of EB
Indoctrinate children to worship EB
Avoid taxes by EB worship organizations
Promote divisiveness, conflict, violence, warfare

Because you know there is no Easter bunny.

Correction: I would challenge EB worshipers claims for reasons stated above

God...you cant prove he doesn't exist.

I take no position regarding the existence of any of the thousands of proposed ‘gods’ – as clearly stated in my signature.

So you cant prove i am wrong for believing he exists.

I have absolutely no interest in what you believe. However, I can, reasonably in debate, challenge claims, statements, stories made by anyone who claims knowledge of EB, Leprechauns, fairies, or gods.

We are in the same boat. Paddling in different directions. Going in circles.

I respectfully decline your boating invitation. Instead, I present ideas for readers to consider in opposition to religious propaganda and advertising.

Here: ill share my virtual soda and sandwhich as we circle.

Thanks

[Zzyzx]

.

You are of the opinion that you are God.

In reasoned and honorable debate it is impolite and totally inappropriate to tell anyone what THEIR opinion is.

That nothing is greater than you.

I regard myself as 'greater' than imaginary entities -- and I do not require worship or financial support.

If any of the thousands of proposed 'gods' be real, let them step forward and challenge me directly. Their supporters seem to be stumbling about ineptly.

[Divine Insight]

You wouldnt be on here if you knew with certainty that God doesnt exist.

I realize you started this thread to pick on Z, but I think it's fair to point out that there are people on these forums who know with certainty that the God described by Hebrew mythology most certainly doesn't exist. I am certainly one of these people.

As far as I'm concerned I have demonstrated countless times over why the God described in Hebrew mythology cannot be true and therefore cannot exist as described in Hebrew mythology.

Can I prove that there does not exist any kind of God that we can imagine? No, of course not. But on a forum where the main topics of debate are on the subject of the Christian God I don't need to claim that no gods can exist. All I need to do is show why the Christian God cannot exist.

There is no need to claim that no possible concept of a God can exist to demonstrate that the God described in Hebrew mythology is clearly false.

So yes, I know with certainty that the God described in Hebrew mythology is nothing more than a very poorly made up collection of superstitious fables that cannot possibly be true as they are written. In fact, supporters of the Abrahamic religions know this. This is why they so passionately reject a "literal interpretation" of what the Bible has to say and constantly argue for apologies that require that the Bible never said what's actually written within it.

So Abrahamic theists are the first to agree that the Bible must not be taken literally or it would of course clearly be false. So they already know that I speak the truth.

[William]

[Replying to post 3 by ]

Zzyzx: I regard myself as 'greater' than imaginary entities -- and I do not require worship...

William: I could suppose that you would regard any entities which proved themselves to be real, to at least then be "No Lesser" than you?


Zzyzx: ...I do not require financial support.

William: If you are living off any system which includes finance, then yes - you do. Otherwise, what is your secret for living outside of that?
How do you get free internet, for example?

[Zzyzx]

.

I regard myself as 'greater' than imaginary entities

If any of the thousands of proposed 'gods' be real, let them step forward and challenge me directly. Their supporters seem to be stumbling about ineptly.

I could suppose that you would regard any entities which proved themselves to be real, to at least then be "No Lesser" than you?

The key term is ‘proved themselves to be real.’

I am certainly open to that – and have said several times that I would be a believer if a ‘god’ appeared in public and said something like, “All weapons of war will disappear. Don’t make any more� and the weapons actually disappeared.

That should be ‘child’s play’ for an omnipotent ‘god’. Tales, opinions, testimonials, legends, myths, fantasy, etc will not suffice.

So far, no takers – but a lot of TALKERS claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities.

I do not require financial support.

If you are living off any system which includes finance, then yes - you do.

Correction: being a member of society and its finance system does NOT require ‘financial support’. As I said, I am not dependent upon financial support.

Otherwise, what is your secret for living outside of that?

By age forty I had made some decisions that turned out rather well. Part of that involved “Do your homework and check the details (verify, verify, verify)�. Another part is “Walk your own path confidently.� Had I listened to others or been timid or small-thinking, nothing other than standard existence would have happened.

As a result, I have been job-free and financially independent for four decades.

When asked, “How can I do that?� my response is, “If you have to ask, you can’t� [or seems very unlikely]

How do you get free internet, for example?

Freedom from need for financial support does NOT require free internet. Having reserves sufficient to more than cover expenses removes the need for support.

Thinking small produces small results.

[OnceConvinced]

You cant agree to such a deal. You are of the opinion that you are God. That nothing is greater than you.

I have known Zzyzx for over 10 years now. Not once have I ever seen him claim to be God. That is clearly a false assertion.

Greater than a god? Well, I would definitely say that he seems to have better morals than the gods I've heard about. And he appears to be way more logical and rational.

You wouldnt be on here if you knew with certainty that God doesnt exist. .

There are many reasons why non-believers might be here on this site and none of them necessarily have anythign to do with doubts about God's existance.

Perhaps instead of making presumptions, it might pay to ask people what their views are.

You wouldnt spend one minute defending the falsity of the Easter Bunny. Because you know there is no Easter bunny.

Nobody is trying to shove the Easter Bunny down anyone's throats. No one is living their life based on the demands of the Easter Bunny, nor are they trying to convince others that people should worship or obey the Easter Bunny. Our world is not overrun by deluded Easter Bunny followers trying to push their will on soceity. Nobody is indoctrinating children into believing in the Easter Bunny beyond childhood. Nobody is threatening Hell and damnation for not believing in the easter bunny. Nobody is doing anything in the name of the Easter Bunny.

Perhaps if they were, we would be debating it.

God...you cant prove he doesn't exist.

This sounds like you are trying to shift the burden of proof. The onus is on the claimant to back up their claims. It's not up to those who don't believe your claim to disprove you.

For instance if I say I have a pet dragon, should it be up to you to prove me wrong? No. It would be up to me to prove I have a pet dragon. Why should you waste your time disproving something just because I said "Prove that my dragon DOESN'T exist."

Do you seriously expect that every claim you make should be proven or disproven by other people rather than yourself? Where do you take responsiblity for your claims?

If something is non-existant how could you possibly prove its non-existance anyway?

[William]

@

Zzyzx: I regard myself as 'greater' than imaginary entities

If any of the thousands of proposed 'gods' be real, let them step forward and challenge me directly. Their supporters seem to be stumbling about ineptly.

William:I could suppose that you would regard any entities which proved themselves to be real, to at least then be "No Lesser" than you?

Zzyzx: The key term is ‘proved themselves to be real.’

William: In regard to the literal, yes.


Zzyzx: I am certainly open to that – and have said several times that I would be a believer if a ‘god’ appeared in public and said something like, “All weapons of war will disappear. Don’t make any more� and the weapons actually disappeared.

William: Yes...can one suppose that this is something you would do if you were an imaginary entity?

Zzyzx: That should be ‘child’s play’ for an omnipotent ‘god’. Tales, opinions, testimonials, legends, myths, fantasy, etc will not suffice.

William: Indeed. What these seem to do is all point to a place which is Metaphysical and not usually open to Physical Probing...

Zzyzx: So far, no takers – but a lot of TALKERS claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities.

William: It is not so much the talk but what the talk is about, which interests me...that talk includes the opportunity for you to meet these so-far, "invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities" face to face, when you cark it from the dying side of death.
I like to keep that in mind...


Zzyzx: Correction: being a member of society and its finance system does NOT require ‘financial support’. As I said, I am not dependent upon financial support.

William: As long as you are suckling off a system which is based in finance, then - yes you are.

Zzyzx: By age forty I had made some decisions that turned out rather well. Part of that involved “Do your homework and check the details (verify, verify, verify)�. Another part is “Walk your own path confidently.� Had I listened to others or been timid or small-thinking, nothing other than standard existence would have happened.

As a result, I have been job-free and financially independent for four decades.

When asked, “How can I do that?� my response is, “If you have to ask, you can’t� [or seems very unlikely]

William: Certainly.
Do you think you will survive the coming catastrophe of The Climate Change?


Zzyzx: Freedom from need for financial support does NOT require free internet. Having reserves sufficient to more than cover expenses removes the need for support.


William: So you see, I am correct. You are dependent upon finance...that is why you have so much of it.
I don't know about you, but I do know that so many with finance galore are wasting theirs living the life.
I think that if I were in such a position, I would be preparing for the Climate Change.

Zzyzx: Thinking small produces small results.

William: Thinking produces results.
From my own position, which also incidentally depends on finance, i live from week to week, have no assets, rent, buy food, yada yada...
This is because the only thing I was taught about money which stuck, is that it was evil.
I understand why my dad thought of it that way, because he came from a poor background which was most likely generations old, where it was only known that being poor in this world was to suffer at the hands of evil...and evil operates so well when - coincidentally - it is well financed.

Indeed, I haven't particularly changed my opinion on that either. There are enough wealthy folk in this system to easily make a real difference for everyone, in a positive manner.
They appear to mostly be distracted by all the goodies...

Anyway - that is why the stories Jesus told are so appealing to the poor...they promise retribution on the rich from the so-far, "invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities" because the rich give the poor no alternative Justice to put their hope in.

All they get is grief.

[Zzyzx]

.

So you see, I am correct. You are dependent upon finance...that is why you have so much of it.

Switcheroo – the initial claim was that I am dependent upon financial SUPPORT. My finances are adequate to cover expenses for as long as I live. Therefore, I need no financial support – just as I said.

Do you think you will survive the coming catastrophe of The Climate Change?

I have absolutely NO concern about personally surviving climate change. I turn eighty years old this year. The rate of change is unlikely to affect me during the next few years.

From my own position, which also incidentally depends on finance, i live from week to week, have no assets, rent, buy food, yada yada...
This is because the only thing I was taught about money which stuck, is that it was evil.
I understand why my dad thought of it that way, because he came from a poor background which was most likely generations old, where it was only known that being poor in this world was to suffer at the hands of evil...and evil operates so well when - coincidentally - it is well financed.

Condolences. However, we are each responsible for LEARNING about the world we inhabit (including financial systems), and cannot legitimately blame others for our lack of knowledge or success.

Some of us who also came from a ‘working class’ background chose paths different from our upbringing / family / friends / etc.

Anyway - that is why the stories Jesus told are so appealing to the poor...they promise retribution on the rich from the so-far, "invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities" because the rich give the poor no alternative Justice to put their hope in.

Agree. Religions, including Christianity, often appeal to the ‘downtrodden’ by giving them ‘hope’ for better things ‘after you die’.

Yes...can one suppose that this is something you would do if you were an imaginary entity?

One can suppose whatever their imagination allows. However, that would be a rather foolish supposition.

[William]

Zzyzx: Switcheroo – the initial claim was that I am dependent upon financial SUPPORT. My finances are adequate to cover expenses for as long as I live. Therefore, I need no financial support – just as I said

William: I think most readers would agree to the gist of what I was referring to, so there is really no need to start arguing semantics...Do you think you will survive the coming catastrophe of The Climate Change?



Zzyzx: I have absolutely NO concern about personally surviving climate change. I turn eighty years old this year. The rate of change is unlikely to affect me during the next few years.

William: So why do you think then that you are a person of integrity who regards oneself as 'greater' than imaginary entities'? Are you not aware of any Metaphysical Entities which are proclaimed to care about such things?
From my own position, which also incidentally depends on finance, i live from week to week, have no assets, rent, buy food, yada yada...
This is because the only thing I was taught about money which stuck, is that it was evil.
I understand why my dad thought of it that way, because he came from a poor background which was most likely generations old, where it was only known that being poor in this world was to suffer at the hands of evil...and evil operates so well when - coincidentally - it is well financed.

Zzyzx: Condolences.

William: Why do you feel the need to give me condolences?Are you thinking that your position is somehow so different from mine that mine is beneath your own?


Zzyzx:However, we are each responsible for LEARNING about the world we inhabit (including financial systems), and cannot legitimately blame others for our lack of knowledge or success.

William: I know of no actual Laws which prevent others from taking what they lawfully can, and nor am I aware of any Laws which stipulate that being poor is somehow a fault.

Zzyzx: Some of us who also came from a ‘working class’ background chose paths different from our upbringing / family / friends / etc.

William: I get the impression that your response to my own, is due to your thinking that I am blaming others for my being in the position I am.
I never said that I thought my position was wrong, or agreed with anyone that somehow there should be fault. What I said was that is why the stories Jesus told are so appealing to the poor...they promise retribution on the rich from the so-far, "invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities" because the rich give the poor no alternative Justice to put their hope in. All they get is grief.

Zzyzx: Religions, including Christianity, often appeal to the ‘downtrodden’ by giving them ‘hope’ for better things ‘after you die’.

William: And you are here to offer a better solution, before you depart this mortal realm?

Zzyzx: So far, no takers – but a lot of TALKERS claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities.

William: Yes...can one suppose that this is something you would do if you were an imaginary entity?

Zzyzx: One can suppose whatever their imagination allows. However, that would be a rather foolish supposition.

William: What allows you to imagine that you will not be finally getting what you ask for, after your body dies, that you proclaim such as "foolish"...you haven't said.