Calvin

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RightReason
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Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 424 by PinSeeker]
Calvin is motivated more by hatred than truth.

Sure, hatred of "violence" done to God's Word. That's a good thing. Yes, he and the rest of the Reformers hated the way Catholicism had ripped Christianity from its Biblical roots. I do, too. But Calvin loved his Catholic brethren, and I do, too.
Ripped Christianity from its Biblical roots? Wouldn’t that be what leaving Christ’s established Church and starting a new one be doing?
Calvin's hatred is of anything that would detract from God's glory, too.
So, you don’t think it detracts from God’s glory to usurp His Church? To speak on matters one has no authority to speak on? To reinterpret Sacred Scripture? To not trust Jesus and His command to listen to His Church?

I am going to post some excerpts from testimony of two guys who both went from Calvin to Catholicism. If you want to read their whole story, it’s very good.

*****


In particular, as a Protestant, I had always had vague notions that the earliest Christians were essentially the same as Protestants today in theology and style of worship. The Re-“formation� was, I thought, all about re-“forming� Christianity so that it got back to the original Christianity bequeathed to us by Christ, removing from it all the superstitious and silly doctrines and practice imposed upon it in the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church. I soon found that these vague notions I held about the early Church could not have been more erroneous.


As I read these detailed summaries of the beliefs of the Fathers of the Church, I was startled in particular to find in them all the essential elements of contemporary Catholicism in embryonic form. Moreover, this mustard seed of the Catholic Church did not become visible a couple hundred years after Christ, but was present in the earliest recorded Christian writings, some predating or contemporaneous with what we have good reason to believe was the time that the books of the Bible were still being written! In brief, the earliest Church was the Catholic Church.


The area of doctrine that struck me most forcefully was the insistence of the early Fathers (particularly St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp, and even into the period of the apologists Tertullian and St. Irenaeus) on obedience in matters of faith and doctrine to the bishops and the centrality of Tradition (faithfully transmitted to us by the bishops) in the codification of Christian doctrine. Tertullian and Irenaeus were particularly forceful to me in showing that sola Scriptura (as it is understood and firmly believed by central figures in the Protestant Reformation) was a notion foreign to early Christians. Once I saw this in the Fathers, I was shocked to find strong support of it in Scripture.

I was even surprised to find early insistence by some Fathers upon Peter’s primacy as the Prince of the Apostles and the necessary submission to his successor as the chief steward of the authentic Faith. From this source, I thought, all other Catholic doctrines necessarily derive. For even if we saw no other Catholic doctrine present in the early period, save the necessity of believing the faith transmitted by the Pope, that would be sufficient. It is obvious that the popes have preached the Catholic Faith, and thus the Faith the early Christians would have today is authentically found only in the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, we find evidence for a broad range of uniquely Catholic beliefs and practices in the early Church, not just the doctrines involving Tradition and submission to the hierarchy, but my area of interest in philosophy was (and is) epistemology — that is, a study of what we know and how we know it — and seeing this point strongly pushed me toward Catholicism.


Prior to the actual decision to convert, I wanted to make sure I was not being hasty. I began reviewing many of my old theological sources to see if I had forgotten about central objections to Catholicism that I had not been particularly interested in during my youth. For instance, I read a lot of Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion, trying to find some argument against the Catholic Church he was leaving. I also reviewed the works of Van Til, whose apologetic method was supposed to prove the Calvinist form of Christianity distinctly. Both left me very unimpressed. I turned to two Protestant apologetics websites that I had found useful in my youth and, looking over their arguments against Catholicism, I found the websites’ arguments to be easily responded to in light of the research I had done into Catholicism.


When one is convinced, as I was at this time, that one’s salvation is an assured thing as long as one “has faith,� then it is easy to rationalize one’s own particular sins as a necessary and uninteresting consequence of the human condition that should be generally avoided, but not with any urgency. It was not as though, I had thought, my salvation depended upon avoiding sin. It rested instead upon the genuineness of my faith and the sincerity with which I adhered to my Protestant faith. Though the false and dangerous part of this theology did not sink in while I was under my parents’ supervision, I became much more rebellious in college. I began to go to parties often. This seems like a benign part of college life to many, but this was a very bad and dangerous phase of my life that, as sin often does, made me very miserable and blinded me to the specific cause or nature of my suffering.


Yet Calvinism excused my sin as something God Himself did not see, since, so I believed, the righteousness of Christ had been imputed to me because of my genuine faith, covering over my sins so that He was blind to them, at least insofar as my salvation was concerned. My conscience naturally reproved the guilt of my actions, and yet I found in Reformation theology a rationalization of the guilt that prevented any serious and genuine reformation of my life.


https://chnetwork.org/story/from-calvin ... an-besong/










I was raised a Presbyterian, the Church that prides itself on Calvinist origins, but I didn’t care much about denominations. My Church practiced a pared-down, Bible-focused, born-again spirituality shared by most Evangelicals. I went to a Christian college and then a seminary where I found the same attitude. Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Charismatics worshiped and studied side-by-side, all committed to the Bible but at odds on how to interpret it. But our differences didn’t bother us. Disagreements over sacraments, Church structures, and authority were less important to us than a personal relationship with Christ and fighting the Catholic Church. This is how we understood our common debt to the Reformation.


Strangely, mastering Calvin didn’t lead me anywhere I expected. To begin with, I decided that I really didn’t like Calvin. I found him proud, judgmental and unyielding. But more importantly, I discovered that Calvin upset my Evangelical view of history. I had always assumed a perfect continuity between the Early Church, the Reformation and my Church. The more I studied Calvin, however, the more foreign he seemed, the less like Protestants today. This, in turn, caused me to question the whole Evangelical storyline: Early Church – Reformation – Evangelical Christianity, with one seamless thread running straight from one to the other. But what if Evangelicals really weren’t faithful to Calvin and the Reformation? The seamless thread breaks. And if it could break once, between the Reformation and today, why not sooner, between the Early Church and the Reformation? Was I really sure the thread had held even that far?


Calvin shocked me by rejecting key elements of my Evangelical tradition. Born-again spirituality, private interpretation of Scripture, a broad-minded approach to denominations – Calvin opposed them all. I discovered that his concerns were vastly different, more institutional, even more Catholic. Although he rejected the authority of Rome, there were things about the Catholic faith he never thought about leaving. He took for granted that the Church should have an interpretive authority, a sacramental liturgy and a single, unified faith.


These discoveries faced me with important questions. Why should Calvin treat these “Catholic things� with such seriousness? Was he right in thinking them so important? And if so, was he justified in leaving the Catholic Church? What did these discoveries teach me about Protestantism? How could my Church claim Calvin as a founder, and yet stray so far from his views? Was the whole Protestant way of doing theology doomed to confusion and inconsistency?

Calvin was a second-generation Reformer, twenty-six years younger than Martin Luther (1483-1546). This meant that by the time he encountered the Reformation, it had already split into factions. In Calvin’s native France, there was no royal support for Protestantism and no unified leadership. Lawyers, humanists, intellectuals, artisans and craftsman read Luther’s writings, as well as the Scriptures, and adapted whatever they liked.

His first request to the city council was to impose a common confession of faith (written by Calvin) and to force all citizens to affirm it.

Calvin’s most important contribution to Geneva was the establishment of the Consistory – a sort of ecclesiastical court- to judge the moral and theological purity of his parishioners. He also persuaded the council to enforce a set of “Ecclesiastical Ordinances� that defined the authority of the Church, stated the religious obligations of the laity, and imposed an official liturgy. Church attendance was mandatory. Contradicting the ministers was outlawed as blasphemy. Calvin’s Institutes would eventually be declared official doctrine.


Calvin’s lifelong goal was to gain the right to excommunicate “unworthy� Church members. The city council finally granted this power in 1555 when French immigration and local scandal tipped the electorate in his favor. Calvin wielded it frequently


In 1551, Bolsec, a physician and convert to Protestantism, entered Geneva and attended a lecture on theology. The topic was Calvin’s doctrine of predestination, the teaching that God predetermines the eternal fate of every soul. Bolsec, who believed firmly in “Scripture alone� and “faith alone,� did not like what he heard. He thought it made God into a tyrant. When he stood up to challenge Calvin’s views, he was arrested and imprisoned.

What makes Bolsec’s case interesting is that it quickly evolved into a referendum on Church authority and the interpretation of Scripture. Bolsec, just like most Evangelicals today, argued that he was a Christian, that he had the Holy Spirit and that, therefore, he had as much right as Calvin to interpret the Bible. He promised to recant if Calvin would only prove his doctrine from the Scriptures. But Calvin would have none of it. He ridiculed Bolsec as a trouble maker (Bolsec generated a fair amount of public sympathy), rejected his appeal to Scripture, and called on the council to be harsh. He wrote privately to a friend that he wished Bolsec were “rotting in a ditch.�2


While he rejected Rome’s claim to authority, he made striking claims for his own authority. He taught that the “Reformed� pastors were successors to the prophets and apostles, entrusted with the task of authoritative interpretation of the Scriptures


If Calvin’s ideas on Church authority were a surprise to me, his thoughts on the sacraments were shocking. Unlike Evangelicals, who treat the theology of the sacraments as one of the “non-essentials,� Calvin thought they were of the utmost importance.


Calvin understood baptism in much the same way. He never taught the Evangelical doctrine that one is “born again� through personal conversion. Instead, he associated regeneration with baptism and taught that to neglect baptism was to refuse salvation


Studying Calvin raised important questions about my Evangelical identity. How could I reject as unimportant issues that my own founder considered essential? I had blithely and confidently dismissed baptism, Eucharist, and the Church itself as “merely symbolic,� “purely spiritual� or, ultimately, unnecessary. In seminary, too, I found an environment where professors disagreed entirely over these issues and no one cared! With no final court of appeal, we had devolved into a “lowest common denominator� theology.



I realized instead that Calvin was part of the problem. He had insisted on the importance of unity and authority, but had rejected any rational or consistent basis for that authority. He knew that Scripture totallyalone, Scripture interpreted by each individual conscience, was a recipe for disaster. But his own claim to authority was perfectly arbitrary. Whenever he was challenged, he simply appealed to his own conscience, or to his subjective experience, but he denied that right to Bolsec and others. As a result, Calvin became proud and censorious, brutal with his enemies, and intolerant of dissent. In all my reading of Calvin, I don’t recall him ever apologizing for a mistake or admitting an error.


It eventually occurred to me that Calvin’s attitude contrasted sharply with what I had found in the greatest Catholic theologians. Many of them were saints, recognized for their heroic charity and humility. Furthermore, I knew from reading them, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis de Sales, that they denied any personal authority to define doctrine. They deferred willingly, even joyfully, to the authority of Pope and council. They could maintain the biblical ideal of doctrinal unity (1 Corinthians 1:10), without claiming to be the source of that unity.

These saints also challenged the stereotypes about Catholics that I had grown up with. Evangelicals frequently assert that they are the only ones to have “a personal relationship with Christ.� Catholics, with their rituals and institutions, are supposed to be alienated from Christ and Scripture. I found instead men and women who were single-minded in their devotion to Christ and inebriated with His grace.

In the end, I began to see that everything good about Evangelicalism was already present in the Catholic Church – the warmth and devotion of Evangelical spirituality, the love of Scripture and even, to some extent, the Evangelical tolerance for diversity. Catholicism has always tolerated schools of thought, various theologies and different liturgies. But unlike Evangelicalism, the Catholic Church has a logical and consistent way to distinguish the essential from the non-essential. The Church’s Magisterium, established by Christ (Matthew 16:18; Matthew 28:18-20), has provided that source of unity that Calvin sought to replace.

One of the most satisfying things about my discovery of the Catholic Church is that it fully satisfied my desire for historical rootedness.

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/0 ... -catholic/


What do you make of these two men’s personal faith journey? Do you see the problem they both found in accepting John Calvin or any other subsequent “Reformer�?

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Post #2

Post by PinSeeker »

Sorry; didn't realize you had started another thread. I'll re-post here what I posted there:

The common thread among all such conversions from Protestantism to Catholicism is some variation of this larger theme:

"I didn't like all the disunity; I left Protestantism because I wanted the church leaders to be the exclusive leaders..." (in effect, to do the thinking for us) "...so everybody would be in perfect unity."

Of course no Christian actually likes disunity, but desires, along with Paul, perfect unity in the Spirit regarding all matters regarding Christ (Ephesians 4), but they realize that even if striving together causes temporary hardship or strife, it is personally rewarding and God-glorifying. This striving together and helping each other in all things is "iron sharpening iron," as we read in Proverbs; it's how God made it to be in this fallen world.

And this lack of participation in leadership really promotes disunity and in its worst form is avoidance. Ultimately, it is harmful to the fellowship of the saints (all believers, which the Bible very strongly encourages) and detracting from the one true Authority -- our Rock -- Christ Jesus, in Whom we all, together, live and move and have our being.

Yes, there are plenty of "conversion to Catholicism" stories out there, and most folks who move from Protestantism, especially Calvinism, to Catholicism are very smart people. They move to what we call a "T.R." (Truly Reformed) position, which is to become legalistic, really, in a lot of things, and then it's a short and virtually inevitable jump to Catholicism.

There are also a lot of testimonies out there of people moving in the opposite direction... from Catholicism to Protestantism. There are many co-congregants in my own church alone -- or the church I attend -- who meet this description. Most people moving in this direction become Reformed and even Calvinist -- overwhelmingly more than Arminian (which is why you don't hear about these as much, actually... they recognize in it the work of God by His Spirit based on the Work of Christ rather than focusing on themselves or the Church). Most often, what drives them is that they realize that striving together is necessary so that God is glorified in all things and that any temporary hardship or conflict is actually a good thing (although not good in and of itself) because the Spirit is working even in that; God works all things, even things that we consider "unpleasant," together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Grace and peace to you, RR.

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Post by RightReason »

[Replying to PinSeeker]
Sorry; didn't realize you had started another thread.

Ha, ha, ha . . . I didn’t. Moderator must have set it up. I didn't know this was here either. I would comment on your comments here, but after reading it and even re reading, I realized it really doesn’t say anything so nothing really to comment on.

You didn’t answer how leaving the Church and starting a new faith wouldn’t in fact be ripping Christianity from its roots.

And you didn’t really respond to the point that Calvin ironically left Christ’s Church and then turned around and did what he didn’t like she did – he insisted what he was teaching was right and anyone who disagreed was wrong. Of course, Christ’s Church had the power and authority to say that, Calvin did not.

You also didn’t respond to how problematic Calvin’s predestination theology in preventing genuine and serious reform in one’s personal life is.

And then there was the point that Calvin actually taught and believed more of what the Catholic Church teaches and believes than those following what they think are the teachings of Calvin today. And like I said, that is the unfortunate consequence of what happens the further one gets away from Christ’s established Church.

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Post by brianbbs67 »

Christ established no church. He established the Way. His movement called Israel back into covenant. The Hebrew religion and the instructions/Torah of Moses. He did nothing new to establish the old. Sin is defined as breaking the law. No law no sin. We wouldn't want to live that way, would we?

Look at what he commanded. Its all about following the law not traditions of men which is what Judah was doing thus negating God's law. People have twisted Paul's words for 2000 years and it probably will continue a while. Even though , Paul claimed to teach only Moses and the Prophets. King Agrippa heard this thing. The big question everyone has to ask is, Does Paul supersede Christ?

If not, then forget the misunderstanding of Paul and follow Christ. Its that simple. Do as christ did. What did he do?

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Post #5

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to brianbbs67]

Christ established no church.

Well then you better tell Him that . . .

“Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I build my church�

“If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.� 1 Timothy 3:15

“For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body� – Ephesians 5:29-30

“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.� –Matthew 18:17

The big question everyone has to ask is, Does Paul supersede Christ?
Or is the big question to ask, am I superseding Christ? Am I applying my own personal interpretation? Am I picking and choosing? Do I know better than Jesus Christ?
If not, then forget the misunderstanding of Paul and follow Christ. Its that simple. Do as christ did. What did he do?
So, your claim is Christendom got it all wrong and from the beginning? Your claim is those who were actually alive when Jesus walked the earth, witnessed His miracles first hand, heard His words first hand, missed it, but thousands of years later someone came along and recognized Paul as a traitor and so takes the Bible that was given to us by Paul and the Church and dismisses the parts he doesn’t like and re interprets the whole thing how he thinks it should be. Yes, that sounds logical.

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RightReason wrote: You didn’t answer how leaving the Church and starting a new faith wouldn’t in fact be ripping Christianity from its roots.
Calvin responded to God's call regarding God's purpose of restoring the integrity of His Word and the Gospel, neither of which had been "lost," but distorted (in the same sense Paul speaks of in Galatians 1:8) by the Catholic Church.

And not just the Catholic Church, but also those who had begun to follow the teachings of Jacob Arminius. I'm sure you've heard of the five points of Calvinism, but there really are not "five points" to Calvinism at all. Calvin only responded (and debunked) the five points Jacob Arminius propagated. And this was not a new disagreement concerning the Gospel; Augustine and Pelagius had the same disagreement about a thousand years before. Calvin knew Augustine was right, and Arminius thought Pelagius was right.
RightReason wrote: And you didn’t really respond to the point that Calvin ironically left Christ’s Church and then turned around and did what he didn’t like she did – he insisted what he was teaching was right and anyone who disagreed was wrong.

I didn't respond because it wasn't really a "point" at all... But I'll touch on it briefly here:

One of Calvin's main intents was to return Christianity to the people where it was always supposed to be in the first place; institutional authority and men lording over other men was never Jesus's intent.

As for calling 'wrong' wrong, all teachers think they are right; otherwise, they don't teach. Unless they're just wrapped up in the power and influence over the masses of it all, which was at that time one of the chief failings of the Catholic Church (and still is, albeit maybe to a little lesser degree). At any rate, standing up for what you think is the truth is a good thing, at least to me.
RightReason wrote: Of course, Christ’s Church had the power and authority to say that, Calvin did not.
Calvin absolutely did have authority. Not ultimate authority; only Christ has that, and always will. But, Calvin had authority, as do we all; all believers are empowered in Christ. We are all to stand up for Jesus. We are all to respond to and act on His Commission, His mandate. As He says in at the very end of Matthew's Gospel:
  • "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
He was speaking to all His disciples here, as you know (or should), not just to Peter. Here, just before His ascension -- after He has spoken to Peter in Matthew 16, where Catholics suppose Christ ceded His authority to Peter -- He reiterates that all authority resides with Him, Jesus, and Him alone. I digress. But we are to even offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, as Paul says in Romans 12:1.
RightReason wrote: You also didn’t respond to how problematic Calvin’s predestination theology in preventing genuine and serious reform in one’s personal life is.
Right, because it's not. Maybe you could expound on the "problems" you think it presents. That would be, um, interesting. That would probably be better done in another thread, and actually, I think there is another thread on this that's pretty current.
RightReason wrote: And then there was the point that Calvin actually taught and believed more of what the Catholic Church teaches and believes than those following what they think are the teachings of Calvin today.
Calvin did teach and believe much of what the Catholic Church taught, and Calvinists (adherents of true, historical Calvinism) adhere to those things. Not because Calvin or the Catholic Church taught them, but because they were and are right. We agree on more, maybe much more, than we disagree on, but there continue to be some things Calvin strongly disagreed with Catholics on, and those things historic Calvinists like me continue to stand with Calvin and others before him (like Augustine and Martin Luther) on. But like I said, ultimately, it's about Christ Jesus and Him alone.
RightReason wrote: And like I said, that is the unfortunate consequence of what happens the further one gets away from Christ’s established Church.
Nah, God continues to build Christ's true Church. Christ is the corner stone, and we are all fellow citizens with the saints, of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (all of them). In Christ Jesus the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, a dwelling of God in the Spirit (Ephesians 2). Not to say that there are no people who now call themselves Catholics who are or will not, in the fullness of time, be brought into Christ's universal church... because there are/will be. And Protestants, too, as repugnant as that may seem to some now.

Grace and peace to you, RR.

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Post #7

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brianbbs67 wrote: Christ established no church. He established the Way. His movement called Israel back into covenant. The Hebrew religion and the instructions/Torah of Moses. He did nothing new to establish the old. Sin is defined as breaking the law. No law no sin. We wouldn't want to live that way, would we?

Look at what he commanded. Its all about following the law not traditions of men which is what Judah was doing thus negating God's law. People have twisted Paul's words for 2000 years and it probably will continue a while. Even though , Paul claimed to teach only Moses and the Prophets. King Agrippa heard this thing. The big question everyone has to ask is, Does Paul supersede Christ?

If not, then forget the misunderstanding of Paul and follow Christ. Its that simple. Do as christ did. What did he do?
LIKE. :)

Yes, God, from the beginning, purposed to have a Household. Christ said He was going to build His universal Church. It was already established -- Christ Himself, Who in the beginning was with God and was God, and through Whom all things came into being, was always and is now the corner stone -- and had been from all eternity, by God, the great I AM.

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Post by marco »

PinSeeker wrote:

There are also a lot of testimonies out there of people moving in the opposite direction... from Catholicism to Protestantism.

To James Joyce is attributed the comment, on movement from Catholicism to Protestantism: “I said I have lost my faith, not my self-respect.� I cannot see any possible justification for doing this.


PinSeeker wrote:
Most often, what drives them is that they realize that striving together is necessary so that God is glorified in all things and that any temporary hardship or conflict is actually a good thing (although not good in and of itself) because the Spirit is working even in that; God works all things, even things that we consider "unpleasant," together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

As long as one refrains from calling "reason" the driving force. I know people wake up in the night, like Samuel, and hear voices. If becoming a Protestant is the answer, perhaps they sleep better. Insomnia is hell.

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Post #9

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to PinSeeker]


Calvin responded to God's call regarding God's purpose of restoring the integrity of His Word and the Gospel, neither of which had been "lost," but distorted (in the same sense Paul speaks of in Galatians 1:8) by the Catholic Church.
How does one restore the integrity of God’s Word and the Gospel by not following it? How/why does one assume authority not given him?
One of Calvin's main intents was to return Christianity to the people where it was always supposed to be in the first place; institutional authority and men lording over other men was never Jesus's intent.
Except that Scripture itself tells us Jesus established His Church and gave the keys to Peter, told him, “He who hears you, hears me�, referred to His Church as the pillar and foundation of truth, and said if someone should refuse to listen even to the church, he should be considered a pagan.

How can Christianity be returned to the people if there is confusion over what this or that means in Sacred Scripture? How can Christianity be returned to the people if there isn’t a visible, authoritative Church to know we are getting it right? Especially, when we have seen the consequences of denying an authoritative church. Did Calvin succeed? We have thousands of splinter off shoot “Christian denominations� all teaching different things.

Or did Calvin in effect, throw the baby out with the bathwater? Did he in fact, leave Christ’s Church and start his own, as he saw fit? I think that is an important question.

As for calling 'wrong' wrong, all teachers think they are right; otherwise, they don't teach. Unless they're just wrapped up in the power and influence over the masses of it all, which was at that time one of the chief failings of the Catholic Church (and still is, albeit maybe to a little lesser degree). At any rate, standing up for what you think is the truth is a good thing, at least to me.
So, why are you willing to allow Calvin authority that you do not give Christ’s Church? How very odd. Even though Jesus Himself said He would remain with His Church. He didn’t say I will remain with every Tom, Dick, and Calvin who professes my name, but teaches something contrary to truth.

RightReason wrote:


Of course, Christ’s Church had the power and authority to say that, Calvin did not.

Calvin absolutely did have authority. Not ultimate authority; only Christ has that, and always will. But, Calvin had authority, as do we all; all believers are empowered in Christ.

Uh, huh . . . look where that got us. How do you know Calvin got it right? Especially if you agree Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, and George Fox also have authority. They all teach drastically different things. Who is right? Why should we believe Calvin?

We are all to stand up for Jesus. We are all to respond to and act on His Commission, His mandate. As He says in at the very end of Matthew's Gospel:


"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
And how does one go about teaching and insisting on all that Jesus commanded without unity of teaching? Without someone with authority clearing up differences/insuring truth? That is illogical.

RightReason wrote:


You also didn’t respond to how problematic Calvin’s predestination theology in preventing genuine and serious reform in one’s personal life is.

Right, because it's not. Maybe you could expound on the "problems" you think it presents.

Well for starters, it isn’t Biblical and by predestination I am referring to Calvin’s erroneous teachings which are more accurately described as double predestination theory. This heretical teaching wasn’t suggested until Calvin came along, rejecting the authority of Christ’s established Church and decided to teach his own personal theology. Yeah, that’s kind of dangerous and exactly why Christ established One Church He put in charge.

those things historic Calvinists like me continue to stand with Calvin and others before him (like Augustine and Martin Luther) on. But like I said, ultimately, it's about Christ Jesus and Him alone.
I’ll ask you again, how do you know Calvin got it right? It is amazing to me that you do not see how problematic and illogical your theory of church is.

RightReason wrote:


And like I said, that is the unfortunate consequence of what happens the further one gets away from Christ’s established Church.

Nah
Yah.

, God continues to build Christ's true Church. Christ is the corner stone, and we are all fellow citizens with the saints, of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (all of them).

I completely agree with this. Unfortunately, Christ’s true Church is not found in false teachings like Calvin’s predestination, soul sleep, the non existence of hell, bans on alcohol and caffeine, same sex unions, justification of abortion, justification of contraception, not teaching the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, etc, etc, etc. . . .

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Post #10

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marco wrote: To James Joyce is attributed the comment, on movement from Catholicism to Protestantism: “I said I have lost my faith, not my self-respect.� I cannot see any possible justification for doing this.
LOL! James Joyce disavowed Christianity altogether, marco. Yeah, he was all about his "self." Not a good example. :)
marco wrote:
PinSeeker wrote: Most often, what drives them is that they realize that striving together is necessary so that God is glorified in all things and that any temporary hardship or conflict is actually a good thing (although not good in and of itself) because the Spirit is working even in that; God works all things, even things that we consider "unpleasant," together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
As long as one refrains from calling "reason" the driving force.
Oh, that's far, far from the truth. Realizations are based on reason. Rather, instead of abandonment of reason, it's abandonment of wisdom in their own eyes and the full embrace of the wisdom of God as the only true Wisdom.
marco wrote: I know people wake up in the night, like Samuel, and hear voices. If becoming a Protestant is the answer, perhaps they sleep better. Insomnia is hell.
God makes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous alike.

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