A sinless, perfect Jesus?

[Elijah John]

It seems a common position in orthodoxy that Jesus was sinless and perfect. I'm wondering where do we get this doctrine? I see little evidence of this in the Gospels. Perhaps the unknown author of Hebrews? Or was it from Paul's letters?

The doctrine seems essential for Paul's blood-atonement theology or the doctrine of Jesus divinity, but really, why else would it matter?

Prophets, rabbis and teachers can be righteous, even if they are not perfect.

What is the New Testament evidence for Jesus perfection, pro and con?

[JehovahsWitness]

Prophets, rabbis and teachers can be righteous, even if they are not perfect.

What do you mean by "perfect"?

(I don't think anyone can properly address your questions without you defining the terms you use in your question)

[Elijah John]

Prophets, rabbis and teachers can be righteous, even if they are not perfect.

What do you mean by "perfect"?

(I don't think anyone can properly address your questions without you defining the terms you use in your question)

Never having sinned, ever.

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Heb. 4:14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.
... 7:26 For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

2 Cor. 5:21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Heb. 4:14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.
... 7:26 For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

2 Cor. 5:21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.

Mark: 10.18 "why call me good? There is none good but God alone"

Gospel of Luke: "and John performed baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" which Jesus underwent.

Seems Paul and the unknown author of Hebrews considered Jesus sinless. The Gospels? It would seem not so much.

[Eloi]

You wrote:

Mark: 10.18 "why call me good? There is none good but God alone"

Gospel of Luke: "and John performed baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" which Jesus underwent.

Seems Paul and the unknown author of Hebrews considered Jesus sinless. The Gospels? It would seem not so much.

Jesus' baptism was not about sins. It was about Jesus' public presentation as the Messiah.

Dan.9:24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.

Jesus' words in Mark 10:18 do not mean Jesus was a sinner.

Matt. 5:44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

1 Con argument is that Jesus doubted God on the cross! "My dear God or My Father, why have you left me?"
Again, Jesus may not be more than the person of God's Righteous People and that the story of virgin birth by Mary may not be more than a comment on how it happens that Human Beings walk the Earth.

Thank you!

[Dimmesdale]

It seems a common position in orthodoxy that Jesus was sinless and perfect. I'm wondering where do we get this doctrine? I see little evidence of this in the Gospels. Perhaps the unknown author of Hebrews? Or was it from Paul's letters?

The doctrine seems essential for Paul's blood-atonement theology or the doctrine of Jesus divinity, but really, why else would it matter?

Prophets, rabbis and teachers can be righteous, even if they are not perfect.

What is the New Testament evidence for Jesus perfection, pro and con?

The whole idea of sinless perfection to me now stinks of rank anthropocentrism. It is human, all too human I would say, to desire a "perfect" even "morally perfect" being to worship as one's God. It is, I would argue, just as much a projection of human weakness as imagining God to be like us in all respects (i.e., Zeus bedding women in the form of an animal, etc). It's the same thing, just dressed up more and with greater pretence to "goodness."

God isn't "morally perfect" OR "evil". He is beyond both. God is as he is. I would say God contains virtue in himself, that he is the source of auspicious qualities, attributes, etc, but he isn't a cookie-cutter God in the sense that he does everything according to a fixed and unchanging ethic (i.e, "never lying.")

To be sure, we should try to be "perfect" in our ethics (as much as is practical), but we must realize that this is only an ideal standard and not an absolute fact that can ever be historically instantiated.... THIS is what I believe Jesus meant when he said to "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect"; perfect in one's INTENTIONS, NOT in the fulfillment of some useless abstract category.......

[JehovahsWitness]

Prophets, rabbis and teachers can be righteous, even if they are not perfect.

What do you mean by "perfect"?

(I don't think anyone can properly address your questions without you defining the terms you use in your question)

Never having sinned, ever.

In that case, yes Jesus was according to scripture, perfect.

Eloi already listed scriptures HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 566#976566

Here is my earlier post on the subject.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 361#970361

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]


1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.

... Seems Paul and the unknown author of Hebrews considered Jesus sinless. .....

What about the passage in the Letter of PETER?