The information of the Universe is already in us

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #1

Post by Swami »

In this discussion, I wanted to provide scientific evidence for the view that we are all omniscient but don't "realize" it. Under my worldview, the world is just a dream. It is constructed and maintained by our mind. If the Universe is a mental construct, then all of the information contained in it is already in the mind. This is precisely what science is pointing to. In the articles I will post, the researchers openly admit that 'savant' level abilities may lie dormant in all of us and that is because of the condition known as acquired savant syndrome.

What is acquired savant syndrome?
Acquired Savant Syndrome refers to cases in which savant-level skills emerge after a brain injury or disease in previously healthy individuals where no such prodigious skills were evident beforehand.
https://smartdrugsmarts.com/episodes/ac ... -syndrome/

What are some of the known savant-level skills?
Considering all the abilities in the human repertoire, it is interesting that savant skills generally narrow to five general categories: music, usually performance, most often piano, with perfect pitch, although composing in the absence of performing has been reported as has been playing multiple instruments (as many as 22); art, usually drawing, painting or sculpting; calendar calculating (curiously an obscure skill in most persons); mathematics, including lightning calculating or the ability to compute prime numbers, for example, in the absence of other simple arithmetic abilities; and mechanical or spatial skills, including the capacity to measure distances precisely without benefit of instruments, the ability to construct complex models or structures with painstaking accuracy or the mastery of map making and direction finding.

Other skills have been reported less often, including: prodigious language (poly-glot) facility; unusual sensory discrimination in smell, touch or vision including synaesthesia; perfect appreciation of passing time without benefit of a clock; and outstanding knowledge in specific fields such as neurophysiology, statistics or navigation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677584/

For Discussion..
1. What is your experience or understanding of this ability? Do you accept that it proves that we are omniscient?

I'll answer first.

I've already explained how this fits into my worldview but let me also explain experiences of omniscience and how to acquire it. I know when many have meditated on a deity, that they had momentary experiences of omniscience. All that they thought on - the information or answers for it would just rush in naturally. But then it would not last long and some of the information is not remembered. However, where some would say the information was not "remembered", I would rather say the information is no longer "realized". This is because the person is no longer in the meditative state that allows access to omniscience.

Let me explain further for the skeptics. All of the information of your life experience is contained in your memory even if you can't recall it. What is not readily accepted is that your memory or mind also contains all of the information and experiences contained in the Universe and not just that of your own experiences. As I hinted to earlier, meditation can be used to access this level of our memory or mind. Science already proves that meditation can expand your field of consciousness when it makes you more aware of the unconscious level of your mind. And we also see here that scientists already accept that an omniscient mind exists, but they are not yet open on using meditation to unlock it.

Do you see why I believe that Western materialist science is holding back mankind from their real potential?

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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #2

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 1 by Swami]
Under my worldview, the world is just a dream. It is constructed and maintained by our mind. If all of the Universe is a product of our mind then all of the information contained in it is already in the mind.
How does this view play out if you go back just 10 million years ago (only 0.2% of the Earth's age) when the planet we live on was teeming with life but there was nothing resembling a human being, or a brain as capable as that in a modern human being? Was the universe only a product of the minds of the creatures living at that time, and therefore much simpler?

10 million years is nothing on the scale of the universe's existence ... so if the "world" (and from your wording in the quoted section above this is the same as the "Universe") is just a dream and a product of the minds of living creatures, it would by definition have to be much different and simpler only 10 million years ago, but we know this isn't the case.

The universe is clearly not just the product of human minds. It is real matter interacting via the laws of physics, chemistry, etc., and the presence of humans and their minds is an utterly insignificant part of it ... just a tiny subset of living organisms on a spec of dust in one tiny solar system in one tiny galaxy.
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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #3

Post by Divine Insight »

Swami wrote: What is your experience or understanding of this ability?
It's my understanding that most of these so-called savants have not discovered anything profoundly new, nor have they shown an ability to do so.
Swami wrote: Do you accept that it proves that we are omniscient?
No, absolutely not.
Swami wrote: Do you see why I believe that Western materialist science is holding back mankind from their real potential?
Yes. But, IMHO, this is only because you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions that are non-sequitur.

Let's not forget that there are examples in just about every religion in the world where various people have supposedly undergone similar transformations due to various biological accidents or trauma that has caused them to believe that they have had religious visions that confirm the reality of the religion they had been indoctrinated to as a child.

The reason that we can know that these are not valid events is because it happens in all cultures, and the people it happens to always report back confirmation of the religion of their particular cultures, etc.

You may attempt to suggest that this isn't the same thing as a savant, but actually it is. For example, we don't see musical savants suddenly becoming expert at styles of music different from the music of their culture.

Another example is the concept of "Perfect Pitch" that is mentioned in one of the articles you quoted. Actually there is no such thing as a natural "perfect pitch". The 12-note Western scale is a totally arbitrary choice chosen by men to create a scale of only 12 notes. The scale itself is not "perfect", ask any piano tuner. There's nothing natural about it. A piano tuner actually has to cheat nature in order to tune a piano to the Western 12 note scale.

Other cultures have much larger scales that include as many as 40 notes. So there is no such thing as "Perfect Pitch" to begin with. It simply doesn't exist in nature. Our music is an artificial creation of mankind.

You didn't know this? :-k

A similar thing can be said about our mathematics. There is nothing in nature that requires that mathematics be based on a decimal system (or base ten). That was an entirely arbitrary choice by humans. In fact, some ancient cultures based their mathematics on base 60.

Mathematicians have even come to realize that our views on geometry are arbitrary. And this is certainly true of more abstract mathematical concepts such as group theory, etc. In fact, mathematicians to this very day are asking whether our mathematics is invented or discovered. And they cannot come to a consensus on what the answer to that question should even be.

So here you are proclaiming the some sort of omniscience exists, when much of what we know may be totally invented by men and not actually compatible with the natural world at all.

Many people falsely think that mathematics represents absolute truth and describes our real world perfectly. But that is guaranteed to be false. In fact, our current mathematics cannot even be used to describe the precise workings of our world. It breaks down when we try to combine various mathematical theories such as General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

If our universe had to obey our mathematical formalism it would crash and burn.

You didn't know this? :-k

These are well-known facts of our reality. So your conclusion that because some people tend to demonstrate seemingly extraordinary skills associated with various man-made constructs does no imply omniscience.

In fact, in order for a person to actually demonstrate omniscience they would need to be able to explain why our current mathematical formalism actually doesn't work. And more to the point, they would be able to offer up a correct mathematical formalism to replace our obviously incorrect formalism.

But we haven't see anyone do that.

So yes, I can see why you might jump to a non-sequitur conclusion. But that doesn't make your non-sequitur conclusion true.
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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #4

Post by Swami »

DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Swami]
Under my worldview, the world is just a dream. It is constructed and maintained by our mind. If all of the Universe is a product of our mind then all of the information contained in it is already in the mind.
How does this view play out if you go back just 10 million years ago (only 0.2% of the Earth's age) when the planet we live on was teeming with life but there was nothing resembling a human being, or a brain as capable as that in a modern human being? Was the universe only a product of the minds of the creatures living at that time, and therefore much simpler?
Yoga philosophy provides the answer:
Yoga Vasistha, Book III 7:39-43
39 In the beginning this world which appears so very vast and extensive was not in being. It resided in the pure spirit of Brahma. It has evolved from the mind of Brahma*. 40 The thing called the world was never produced, it is not in being, and it does not actually appear. It is like gold in the form of a bracelet. It is not difficult to alter and reduce to its gross metallic state.
41 I will explain it fully by other examples whereby this truth may appear of itself and impress itself irresistibly in your mind. 42 How can something be said to exist that was never brought into existence? How can there be water in the mirage, or the ring of an eclipse in the moon? 43As a barren woman has no son and a mirage has no water, and as the sky has no plant growing in it, so there is no such thing as what we falsely call the world.
*Brahma is God. It exists in the form of pure consciousness.

DrNoGods,
The view that consciousness is limited to a mind or a brain nothing more than Western nonsense. Your error is simply the result of not knowing the nature of consciousness. If consciousness can exist without a body and mind, then it goes beyond "life" forms. Consciousness is tied to the most fundamental level of reality, and life is only one small aspect of reality.
DrNoGods wrote:The universe is clearly not just the product of human minds. It is real matter interacting via the laws of physics, chemistry, etc., and the presence of humans and their minds is an utterly insignificant part of it ... just a tiny subset of living organisms on a spec of dust in one tiny solar system in one tiny galaxy.
Since you keep insisting on the materialist faith then let me quote again from Hindu philosophy:
Yoga Vasistha,Book I, ch. 3
2 Valmiki replied:— Know, holy saint, that the things seen in this world are deceiving, even as the blueness of the sky is an optical illusion. Therefore it is better to efface them in oblivion rather than to keep their memory. 3 All visible objects have no actual existence. We have no idea of them except through sensation. Inquire into these apprehensions and you will never find them as real.
The "real" world points to the way things exist in and of themselves. Materialists think that this "real" world exists without our perception of it. But there is no such world. Everything we know of the world comes from our perception of it. Therefore, consciousness is fundamental. You can't take it away nor get behind it.

If you don't want to accept my Scriptures, my reasoning, and evidence then I can offer you something better. Why not experience this for yourself? Have you ever perceived reality without the filter of your mind and senses? I have. Again, all of your error points right back to you not knowing the nature of consciousness.

Yoga VasisthaBook VI, ch. 31 vs. 1-3
1 Vasishta said:— He who has devoted his whole soul to the contemplation of Consciousness and feels it stirring within himself, knows in his mind the vanity and unreality of all worldly things. 2 By habituating himself to this sort of meditation and seeing the outward objects in his perceptive soul, he sees the external world like an appearance in his dream. 3 All this is truly the form of Consciousness represented in a different garb. Consciousness is more subtle than pure air, but collects and condenses itself as the solid world, then recognizes itself as such. The world is no other than the consolidated consciousness, and there is nothing beside this anywhere.

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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #5

Post by Swami »

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

Before you reply with anything else here please explain to us the nature of consciousness. If you can not do this, then what you're saying is meaningless. You do not realize the error that your entire materialism view is based on.

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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #6

Post by Divine Insight »

Swami wrote: [Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

Before you reply with anything else here please explain to us the nature of consciousness. If you can not do this, then what you're saying is meaningless. You do not realize the error that your entire materialism view is based on.
Why would I need to do that? :-k

This is an absurd demand on your part.

You can't explain the nature of consciousness, so why should you expect me to?

You're claim that life is but a dream in some imagined cosmic mind is nothing more than a faith-based religious ideal. You neither have any evidence for the existence of such a mind, nor does claiming that it exists without evidence constitutes an explanation for the nature of such an imaginary mind.

So before you make such outrageous and absurd demands of me, how about addressing the points I've already made.

You are aware that the 12-note western musical system is indeed an arbitrary chosen system chosen by humans, right? So talking about "Perfect Pitch" as though it represents some primal natural quality of the universe is ridiculous. It's simply a convention created by western cultures.

And you're also aware that if our universe actually obeyed our mathematics it would instantly crash and burn, right?

So not only can you not explain consciousness, but apparently you aren't even aware of many of the basic truths of our reality.

So don't ask me for an explanation of consciousness when you cannot provide one yourself.

By the way, I personally have no problem with consciousness arising from the complexity of a physical brain. We really have no reason to suspect anything more than this. So as far as I'm concerned I already have an explanation for consciousness (i.e. the physical brain).

Now if you want to get into the precise details of how a physical brain might work then first read Marvin Minsky's book "Society of Mind", and then come back with any questions you have after that.

Also, just for your information I'm actually working on A.I. projects and studying Neural Networks and how to develop them. So I actually know quite a bit about how intelligent cognition can arise on its own via an evolutionary processes. You are going to see truly conscious robots in the very near future.

Again, this might be an area that you may be interested to study if you are serious about understanding how human consciousness might work.
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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #7

Post by Swami »

Divine Insight,
The way we are able to express omniscience through the filter of the mind and senses is not by explaining everything there is to know. If you want to know everything all at once then you must be in your pure conscious state which is the God state. While in your body, omniscience is limited to things that you experience or are aware of. After I know of a piano by being aware of it or experiencing it, then all of the knowledge of it comes to mind.

Leslie Lemke - a musical savant
Born with severe birth defects, Lemke suffered from mobility impairments that made it difficult for him to learn to swallow and walk. His birth defects were so severe that doctors had to remove his eyes. Despite so many challenges, Lemke had an astounding ability to play the piano. Although Lemke never had any musical training, his mother, a nurse who adopted him at birth, discovered Lemke playing Piano Concerto No. 1, after hearing it only once on television.
https://pianoreport.com/musical-savant-syndrome/
Divine Insight wrote:
Swami wrote: Do you see why I believe that Western materialist science is holding back mankind from their real potential?
Yes. But, IMHO, this is only because you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions that are non-sequitur.

Let's not forget that there are examples in just about every religion in the world where various people have supposedly undergone similar transformations due to various biological accidents or trauma that has caused them to believe that they have had religious visions that confirm the reality of the religion they had been indoctrinated to as a child.

The reason that we can know that these are not valid events is because it happens in all cultures, and the people it happens to always report back confirmation of the religion of their particular cultures, etc.

You may attempt to suggest that this isn't the same thing as a savant, but actually it is. For example, we don't see musical savants suddenly becoming expert at styles of music different from the music of their culture.
Your skepticism still says that these savants are only experts in what they encounter, but that is remarkable enough wouldn't you say? You did not "learn" something but you suddenly know about it at an expert level? I already explained why omniscience would not always involve discovering something "new". The omniscient ability of a person would be limited to their awareness of something. Once it is encountered, then it will be known about at an expert level without having to practice or "learn".

What I'm explaining here uncovers the full implications and potential of savants. The cases that scientists have right now are people who are savants in particular areas, like only music or math. However, by implication, this savant ability can apply to anything and it can be expanded if you know how tap into it.

You also introduce NDEs. Are you aware that young children also have NDEs? Besides this, just being able to experience something under the traumatic conditions is remarkable enough.

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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

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Post by Divine Insight »

Swami wrote: If you want to know everything all at once then you must be in your pure conscious state which is the God state.
But that's the consciousness that you claim to be experiencing through meditation. Therefore when you meditate you should become omniscient. If what you preach is true.
Born with severe birth defects, Lemke suffered from mobility impairments that made it difficult for him to learn to swallow and walk. His birth defects were so severe that doctors had to remove his eyes. Despite so many challenges, Lemke had an astounding ability to play the piano. Although Lemke never had any musical training, his mother, a nurse who adopted him at birth, discovered Lemke playing Piano Concerto No. 1, after hearing it only once on television.
So what? He's not reading musical notation. And most likely knows nothing at all about any music theory. All he's doing is reproducing sounds that he heard played in the physical world. So he's not exhibiting any information that he hasn't physically experienced.

I'm not impressed by this. It is awesome that he's able to do this, but it certainly doesn't imply anything supernatural or the existence of a cosmic consciousness.
Your skepticism still says that these savants are only experts in what they encounter, but that is remarkable enough wouldn't you say?
But they aren't experts in what they encounter. The example you've just posted about the piano savant in no way suggests that he's an expert on music theory. Or that he can even read so much as a single note of sheet music. So he's no expert.
You did not "learn" something but you suddenly know about it at an expert level? I already explained why omniscience would not always involve discovering something "new". The omniscient ability of a person would be limited to their awareness of something. Once it is encountered, then it will be known about at an expert level without having to practice or "learn".
That's not what's happening in these cases. It's no wonder that you are misguided in this since you apparently don't even understand what's actually going on.
What I'm explaining here uncovers the full implications and potential of savants. The cases that scientists have right now are people who are savants in particular areas, like only music or math. However, by implication, this savant ability can apply to anything and it can be expanded if you know how tap into it.


Savants in music and mathematics don't automatically understand the formal rules of those topics. In fact teachers in both of these fields have often objected to the way that we teach these particular subjects suggesting that there are far better ways to teach them. A lot of people have learned to be great musicians without learning a lick of music theory. The same is true of many people who are very good at math. They have simple come to see the natural relationships between quantities and don't need to know the mathematical rules.

I've come to do this myself over many decades. I was recently presented with a test on electronics where I had to write down the equations to solve various problems. It occurred to me at that time that I couldn't recall a single equation. But that was not a problem because I understood electronics well enough that I could derive the equations in my head by simply understanding how electric circuit actually work.

So I have seen the world from both sides now. No cosmic consciousness required.
You also introduce NDEs. Are you aware that young children also have NDEs? Besides this, just being able to experience something under the traumatic conditions is remarkable enough.
NDEs are not impressive. No one has ever come back from an NDEs with information beyond what they could have already known prior to having had the NDE. If people who had NDEs consistently came back with vivid and correct predictions of future events, or something like that then there might be something to it. But the fact is that never happens.

Moreover a lot of people who have had NDEs often report that they had encountered deities associated with the religions of their cultures. That should tell you volumes right there.

You are simply being impressed by things that don't imply the conclusions that you would apparently like to draw from them. Clearly you have a strong desire to not only believe in your favorite theological ideas, but to try to convince other people that they are true as well. And then when other people aren't convinced you call them "bullies".

There may be some higher consciousness. But nothing you have suggested thus far indicates that this is the case. Believing in something and demonstrating that its true are worlds apart.
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Post #9

Post by Swami »

Let us go over one myth about savants. The myth that they can't find or do anything new which basically reduces them to nothing more but tape recorders or calculators. What does the one of the foremost experts on savantism has to say?

Dr. Darold Treffert:
Myths and Misconceptions

Savants are not creative
Some observers, while extolling the eidetic-like ability and memory of savants, point out that in contrast to such astonishing imitative ability, savants as a group are not very creative. In fact, I was one of those observers who wrote just that in the original 1988 version of Extraordinary People: Understanding Savant Syndrome.13 I raised the question there “Is the savant creative?� I answered it this way: “In my experience, not very.�

I was wrong and have corrected that perception in my later writings. What changed my mind? Additional years of observation. There is always a tremendous advantage in having a longitudinal view of a patient and his or her “natural history� of illness or disorder, compared to a one-time, snapshot consultation. And now, having the opportunity to observe the “natural history� of how the savant skills emerge and develop over many years, I have noted predictable and replicable sequence of steps that progresses from imitation, to improvisation, to creation in savant syndrome. Let me expand on that, using Leslie Lemke as an example.

When I first met Leslie in 1980 his ability to store and replicate music, even after only a single hearing, was spectacular. Indeed, at age 14 he was able to play back Tchaikovsky’s First Piano concerto flawlessly and can do that to this day on request. After several more years of contact with Leslie, however, I began to notice that some improvisational skills were developing.

At a 1989 concert in Neenah, Wis., for example, a young girl came up to the stage in the challenge portion of the concert and played “Mississippi Hotdog.� Leslie listened and then, when asked, dutifully played back the piece as he had heard it. But toward the end of the piece he began to look a bit restless and seemed more excited and more eager to play. After the initial playback of “Mississippi Hotdog� was completed, flawlessly as usual, Leslie then launched into a five-minute improvisation that I guess could be called “Variations on a Theme of Mississippi Hotdog.� It was beautiful. He changed pitch, changed tempo and demonstrated convincingly that he does indeed have innate access to all the “rules of music,� just as suspected. The piece had a huge ending. (Leslie loves huge endings.) The audience loved and appreciated that wonderful improvisation, judging from the applause.
https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org ... realities/


What do scientific journals say about this.. Regarding savants:
The skill has an abrupt onset with no prior interest in or talent for the newly acquired ability.

—The new skill is automatically coupled with a detailed, epiphany-type knowledge of the underlying rules of music, art or math, for example—none of which the person has studied. They know things without ever having learned them.

Indeed, the acquired savant particularly, and now the sudden savant, reinforce the idea that not only is the line between savant and genius a very narrow one but also underscores the possibility such savant abilities may be dormant, to one degree or another, in all of us. The challenge is to tap those special abilities without head injury or CNS incident but rather with some nonintrusive, more readily available methods.

We are working on that.
At the end there the researchers are open to the possibility that everyone has genius level in them and that they are working on unlocking it. Am I just an old man losing his mind when I propose that meditation can unlock omniscience? Or is reductive materialism very limiting when it comes to consciousness? I think the science is very clear on this matter.
Last edited by Swami on Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The information of the Universe is already in us

Post #10

Post by Swami »

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]
Coincidentally I posted my last post around the same time you replied to me. My last post answers some of your questions.

One problem I have with your view is that you claim to be a Buddhists but yet you refuse to acknowledge the error of materialism. Like the typical hardline skeptic, you keep asking for an endless amount of proof not realizing that the problem is not a lack of proof. I'll repost an insight so all the readers can understand.

Regarding DrNoGods, Divine Insight and other skeptics who keep asking for "proof":
Swami wrote:I am going to remind the audience again. I'm fully aware that most atheists will not be convinced through "argumentation". This is why I advocate for people to explore and engage in meditation themselves.

Divine Insight lacks the experience that I have which is why he is not convinced. I challenge anyone to dispute my view that experience is capable of convincing atheists. If you are unwilling to experience, and "arguments" don't convince you, then you're only proving my point.

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