Is faith exercised by obedience...

[shnarkle]

Can we switch the means with the ends? Does it matter?

Does one exercise faith by odedience, or does one exercise obedience by faith? Is it obedience that allows us to exercise faith, or is it faith that allows us to exercise obedience?

Most understand that the Old Covenant stipulated that the children of Israel were entering into an agreement that allowed them a choice to follow God's law and receive blessing, or ignore it and receive malediction. It was their choice, and it was dependant upon their ability. The New Covenant is dependant upon the grace of God, through the faith of Christ. This is what produces fruit, and those who produce fruit are justified. Paul and James refer to this fruit as "works". So works are produced by faith.

However, under the old covenant, is it possible for works to produce faith? If one is obedient, wouldn't it be possible to see how following God's law makes sense, and wouldn't this reinforce one's belief in the wisdom and benevolence of God? Wouldn't one then be able to have their faith built up, and reinforced by seeing God's blessings in their life? Isn't this effected by their obedience?

If one follows God's commands regarding finances, and commercial endeavors, and this leads to financial independance and economic prosperity, wouldn't this lead one to believe that God's laws are not only beneficial, but also reinforce one's faith in God as well?

If one follows the cleaniliness laws, for whatever reason; and discovers that they're healthier than they were before they began to keep them, wouldn't this reinforce one's faith in God?

Self absorbed, self centered people tend to be a bit testy. They don't like anyone impinging or imposing on them, but God's law says to make accommodations for those who need help. People who help others tend to have a more positive level of self esteem, or at least feel better about themselves and their fellow human beings. They see that they have something to contribute to society rather than being a burden on society. Aren't these improved feelings due to their obedience to God's law? Or are they rather the product of faith exercised in order to be obedient?

Can obedience be the means to exercising faith? Is it possible for works to produce faith?

I think Paul has an answer to this last question. I think he would show that this isn't the case under the old testament or the new, but I can't recall where he addresses this issue.

[PinSeeker]

Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12). Saving faith, which itself is a gift of God (Romans 12:3; Ephesians 2:8), produces obedience (Romans 1:5, 6:16, 16:26), and works are the natural result Philippians 2:12-13; James 2).

We can't produce faith in ourselves, nor can we exercise it. We can certainly act on it, though, and we show our faith by our works. Because of our God-given faith, we want to obey, and our works are the result. All the while, it is God working in us by His Spirit, so that we then will and work according to God's pleasure/glory. And in all this, God is doing His good work in us, and He will bring that work to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Grace and peace to you, shnarkle.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 2 by PinSeeker]

When you say, "we show our faith by our works.", is this saying the same thing as "we exercise faith by our works"? Do you think people could interpret these two articulations as synonymous? If not, why not?

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]


Faith is a leap in the dark. Hope against hope that all that we see and experience isn't really what we see and experience. It is of course, but faith allows some to pretend that isn't the case.


Tcg

[PinSeeker]

When you say, "we show our faith by our works.", is this saying the same thing as "we exercise faith by our works"? Do you think people could interpret these two articulations as synonymous? If not, why not?

Those are excellent questions. I may not be understanding you completely when you speak of "exercising our faith." My internal reaction to that is, we can't exercise our faith, thereby making it stronger. That's why, in my mind, "we show our faith by our works" and "we exercise faith by our works" are not synonymous, and I think many would agree with me on that. Many, however, would just dismiss it as mere semantics. But words, even specific words, are very important.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

Faith is a leap in the dark.

Don't you mean that faith is what allows you to take a leap in the dark?

Hope against hope that all that we see and experience isn't really what we see and experience.

All that you see and experience isn't necessarily all that can be seen or experienced.

faith allows some to pretend that isn't the case.

And science proves that it is the case. So from this it seems likely that you're more inclined to agree that it is by faith that one is obedient, rather than by obedience that one exercises faith. Thanks for sharing your faith, but reasons for why this might be the case would be much more appreciated.

[PinSeeker]

Faith is a leap in the dark. Hope against hope that all that we see and experience isn't really what we see and experience. It is of course, but faith allows some to pretend that isn't the case.

Faith... God-given, saving faith... is not a "wish." The Bible defines faith, whether one accepts it or not, for itself. Faith is an assurance, like a title deed to a piece of real estate and/or rock-solid proof, given by God Himself. As such, it is knowledge that is irrefutable. If one wants to assign a different term to it rather than "faith" (because faith, to him, is a wish), that's fine. But it is what it is.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

Faith is a leap in the dark.

Don't you mean that faith is what allows you to take a leap in the dark?

Nope. I meant exactly what I said. Why is it that you must create a straw man rather than deal with what I stated quite clearly?


Tcg

[Tcg]

Faith is a leap in the dark. Hope against hope that all that we see and experience isn't really what we see and experience. It is of course, but faith allows some to pretend that isn't the case.

Faith... God-given, saving faith... is not a "wish."

I never used the word, "wish." Yet another straw man used to avoid addressing what I actually stated.


Tcg

[shnarkle]

When you say, "we show our faith by our works.", is this saying the same thing as "we exercise faith by our works"? Do you think people could interpret these two articulations as synonymous? If not, why not?

Those are excellent questions. I may not be understanding you completely when you speak of "exercising our faith." My internal reaction to that is, we can't exercise our faith, thereby making it stronger. That's why, in my mind, "we show our faith by our works" and "we exercise faith by our works" are not synonymous, and I think many would agree with me on that. Many, however, would just dismiss it as mere semantics. But words, even specific words, are very important.

I think the crux of the matter revolves around the reasons why we say it. Paul is referring to the fact that salvation comes by faith apart from works. He's talking about the origin of salvation, whereas James isn't talking to people about where salvation originates, but pointing out that if there are no works, then it is a sure sign that one has no faith. To apply James' line of reasoning to Paul's argument is to become a Pharisee.

In other words, if we are going to document our salvation, it cannot be by pointing out that we exercise faith by our works because we are using our works to prove we're saved. There is no effective difference between that, and claiming our works are what save us. The reason being that legalists have plenty of good works, and they're not saved. One doesn't need faith to produce good works, but one cannot have faith without good works.

One cannot document their salvation by looking at their works. If this is one's only measure, then they obviously don't have the Spirit witnessing with their spirit.

So back to the question. If one exercises their faith by obedience, what are they doing? Do the works produced through obedience produce faith, or is this simply a means to exercise one's faith?

Likewise, we know that if there are no works, then there is no faith, but we do not show our faith by our obedience except when it is in relation to those who have no works yet believe they have faith.

Ultimately it seems that one exercises their obedience by their faith since it is the faith they've received which allows them to be obedient, but not just in producing works. Obedience that is systemic, and produces the fruit of salvation.