Is faith exercised by obedience...

[shnarkle]

Can we switch the means with the ends? Does it matter?

Does one exercise faith by odedience, or does one exercise obedience by faith? Is it obedience that allows us to exercise faith, or is it faith that allows us to exercise obedience?

Most understand that the Old Covenant stipulated that the children of Israel were entering into an agreement that allowed them a choice to follow God's law and receive blessing, or ignore it and receive malediction. It was their choice, and it was dependant upon their ability. The New Covenant is dependant upon the grace of God, through the faith of Christ. This is what produces fruit, and those who produce fruit are justified. Paul and James refer to this fruit as "works". So works are produced by faith.

However, under the old covenant, is it possible for works to produce faith? If one is obedient, wouldn't it be possible to see how following God's law makes sense, and wouldn't this reinforce one's belief in the wisdom and benevolence of God? Wouldn't one then be able to have their faith built up, and reinforced by seeing God's blessings in their life? Isn't this effected by their obedience?

If one follows God's commands regarding finances, and commercial endeavors, and this leads to financial independance and economic prosperity, wouldn't this lead one to believe that God's laws are not only beneficial, but also reinforce one's faith in God as well?

If one follows the cleaniliness laws, for whatever reason; and discovers that they're healthier than they were before they began to keep them, wouldn't this reinforce one's faith in God?

Self absorbed, self centered people tend to be a bit testy. They don't like anyone impinging or imposing on them, but God's law says to make accommodations for those who need help. People who help others tend to have a more positive level of self esteem, or at least feel better about themselves and their fellow human beings. They see that they have something to contribute to society rather than being a burden on society. Aren't these improved feelings due to their obedience to God's law? Or are they rather the product of faith exercised in order to be obedient?

Can obedience be the means to exercising faith? Is it possible for works to produce faith?

I think Paul has an answer to this last question. I think he would show that this isn't the case under the old testament or the new, but I can't recall where he addresses this issue.

[shnarkle]

Why are you posting that you never disagreed?

Because I... never disagreed.

I never suggested you did.

Well... awesome. I didn't suggest you did... suggest... I... disagreed... Wow.

some, because of who they are, are a little more insecure in themselves, and they doubt.

Right, and as you say, that is who they are. In other words, they're not born again. They're not "walking after the Spirit'.

Well, I agree with you, but Christians can be insecure in themselves, too, not fully realizing what it means for their identity to be in Christ. And they can doubt, too. Maybe to a lesser extent than non-Christians. But again, we all doubt to some small degree, because our belief (like I said) is imperfect, just like everything else about us... in this life, anyway.

Hence my point that it isn't we wo do the realizing in the first place. It is Christ, and there is no doubt or sin in Christ.

If you have saving faith, it is God who is the actor, not you.

That's both true in a sense and untrue in another.

So why do you assume I'm presenting the untrue sense?

I don't assume anything. I'm just stating a fact. It's not about you. You just said that, right? It's not about you. It's not about me. Why are you taking everything so personally and... I don't know, think I'm being adversarial or something?

I'm not suggesting that you're being adversarial. I'm pointing out that you're not advancing an argument by repeating yourself or repeating what I already posted.

I don't assume anything; that would be putting words in your mouth, which I would never do. I only said that what you said was incomplete. Which it was.

No, you quoted Paul's words which were the exact same thing I just posted, and then you suggested I pay close attention to them. Why? Why would I need to scrutinize what Paul says when I just paraphrased his exact words? It's like you're just ignoring what I'm posting and pretending that I'm posting the exact opposite of what I'm actually posting. I'm not pointing out that you're being adversarial, I'm pointing out that what you seem to think completes my thought is no different than what I actually posted. You seem to think you're making some subtle point, but it's the same point I just made

Yes, it is because God is working in us, so what you say here is true in that respect. But those two infinitive phrases ("to will" and "to work") refers to us.

Not when one has lost their identity in Christ. Not when Paul explicitly points out that it is "not by will or effort" (Rom.9:16)

In Romans 9, Paul is talking about God's sovereignty when it comes to salvation... having mercy upon whom he chooses, compassion on whom He will have compassion. Come on, you know that; you just said it.

In Philippians 2, though, Paul is talking about the Christian life -- be like Christ; do all things without grumbling or quarreling; be humble and regard one another as more important than yourselves... and so on. And he ends that little narrative with, God is working in you so that you will and work according to His will and for His good pleasure.

Then he may be addressing Christians, but not Christians that are born again under the new covenant. Those who are born into the new covenant don't have to try or will to do anything. Those are the conditions of the old covenant. Under the new covenant, it is as you already pointed out. It is God who compels obedience. Salvation doesn't end, and then resume where the old testament begins. It begins where the old testament failed. Trying to do God's will according to the flesh is the old covenant model.

And I'm sure we agree that we can't lose our salvation once God has saved us and regenerated our hearts by His Spirit.

No doubt, but then you've just pointed out the error in your argument. To sin is to lose one's salvation. The regenerated heart can't sin in the first place. If one still continues to sin, then they're just fooling themselves Nowhere does the bible talk of regenerated hearts continuing to sin. This is a false assumption which most Christians make, probably due to caving in to peer pressure from other Christians to profess something that isn't actually a reality in their lives yet. It's nothing more than wishful thinking.

We might lose sight of it from time to time, and do, but we cannot lose our identity in Christ. You agree with that, don't you?

No. Not once one knows the truth. If the truth has been revealed to you, you can't sin without placing yourself under God's wrath.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26

If there is no sacrifice to cover one's sins, then one is under the wrath of God. This is why the bible talks of how God used to wink at sin, or look the other way, but not when one has had the truth revealed to them. At that point, one no longer has the luxury of taking sin for granted. The good news is that it is no longer a temptation in the first place. As difficult as it may be for some to believe, things like bestiality, necrophilia, sodomy, fornication, eating swine, or shellfish, profaning the Sabbath are no longer tempting, or even something one must struggle with once one has had the truth revealed to them.

Right, but then why recall suckling milk when one is eating solid food?

Um, just clarifying. It's not about you.

Where did I say this was about me?

I love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. But you better believe I feel an obligation to Him, to serve Him and to act on His mandate to offer my body as a living sacrifice and to proclaim the Lord's death until He comes again, to do my part in taking the Gospel to the ends of the earth. I mean, in all these cases, they're great obligations... but at the same time, they are great privileges. Labors of love.

Then you can't sin. You are compelled to keep God's commandments without fail. To obey the first commandment is to be born again into the new covenant that God warrants and insures will be kept, not you or by your will or effort.

The first commandment isn't really a commandment at all under the new covenant. It's a promise.

That's the good news.

Well the "grudgingly" part is sinful. And, if it is grudgingly, it seems those people should question themselves and their true spiritual state.

It doesn't matter if they do or not, they're not saved until they're actually saved. Perhaps we could dissect them into saved, but not "born into the kingdom" Christians if that helps. The fact remains that when one is doing anything because they should, they're not doing it because they're being compelled by God. Those who do it by the faith of Christ are born again into the kingdom, and cannot fail to keep God's commandments. When the faith of Christ is the means, there is no possibility of failure.

Technically, nothing happens outside of God's will.

Beside the point. No one is claiming that God isn't sovereign, but there should be no mistaking the fact that God didn't convert you or me at conception. If that were the case, then there would have been no point in your life where you came to believe and asked Christ into your heart, etc. right? The problem is in assuming that you're now a part of the new covenant when you still see that you're continuing to sin. This is to redefine the biblical definition of what it means to be brought into that covenant.

But sin -- which everyone is, and even Christians are, guilty of every day, even every minute of every day -- is certainly not God's will.

Yep, and this only goes to show that those Christians are not yet born into the new covenant. They are not being compelled to keep God's commandments. They're still attempting to accomplish God's will according to their own will and effort which will always result in failure because it isn't coming from a regenerated heart at all. The regenerated heart doesn't sin. It is false to presume it even can.

In that sense, we certainly can do things contrary to God's will. But God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. You agree with that, don't you?

Sure, but again this is beside the point. This only serves to support my argument which distinguishes between the Christian who must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin, and the Christian who has been regenerated. Christians tend to assume that just because they've made a decision to accept Christ into their lives, that they're born again into the new covenant. The bible doesn't support this assumption. That assumption is no different than the conditions of the old covenant. That's where everyone starts. The new covenant begins where the old fails, but to then assume that the new covenant fails right where the old one does is to admit one is still operating under the old covenant conditions.

The sole purpose of the new covenant is to keep God's commandments. Unlike the old covenant, trying to keep God's commandments isn't an option.

The Covenant is really the same, just now revealed in a better, Final Way.

It's the same in that it is the same God and the same people, but the conditions by which it is kept are completely different. Under the old covenant it was dependent upon one's "will and effort" which could only result in failure because it revealed our sinful hearts, and sinful fallen hearts not only can't keep God's commandments, they wouldn't if they could.

Under the old covenant, one made a choice to keep God's commandments, and had to rely upon their own volition and ability to keep their vow. Paul repeatedly points out that we need look no further than the old testament scriptures to see what a dismal failure that truly was.

Under the New Covenant the conditions are accomplished by faith. Not your faith, or your will to exercise faith, but "grace through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES...etc." It isn't your faith, but the faith of Christ implanted in the new creature. This new creature is divine. When God creates this new creature, he is creating a son of God, just like Adam was a son of God. However it is not possible for these sons of God to sin without complete loss of their salvation. They can't lose their salvation because they're explicitly created to keep God's commandments. Christ points out that they cannot be deceived. Only those who are deceived can sin by mistake. This only leave intentionally sinning which the elect would never do in the first place.

Old Testament believers were called to keep God's Law (the letter of the Law); they fell far short, of course. We are called to keep the law, too, as New Testament believers, but as Jesus taught us, the law is summed up by loving the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and loving our neighbors (everyone) as ourselves. Well, we fall far short, too.

Then we're still doing it according to the Old Testament conditions. We're still doing it by our own will and effort. There is no possibility of failure with God.

We all need a Redeemer, a Savior.

Sure, but once one has not only been redeemed, but born into the kingdom, their sins are not only forgotten, there is no longer any need for a sacrifice for them. Why? Because Paul points out that it is only the "former sins" that are covered.

Under the new covenant, no one sins anymore. This is explicitly stated in Jeremiah 31:31-33;Ezekiel 11:19;36:26;Hebrews 8:9,10 There is no longer a sacrifice to cover sins because no one who is in the kingdom sins. No one who has come to knowledge of the truth sins anymore. If you're still sinning then you haven't grasped the gravity of sin in your life. That can only come through revelation from God, and that revelation is then immediately followed by the gift of repentance.

Under the old testament one believed without being able to see. Under the new testament, one believes what they see, and they bear witness to what they've seen. A careful examination of the texts reveals this to be the case. They do not bear witness to what they believe, but what they've witnessed. This is why they are called "witnesses" rather than "believers". Belief is a consequence of God's revelation.

This doesn't negate the fact that those who believe without seeing are blessed. It doesn't negate the fact that those who have not yet received this revelation are blessed for continuing to endeavor to keep God's commandments to the best of their ability to the end.

I'm pointing out that as hard as we try to keep God's commandments, it will never lead to saving faith. Paul says something like this himself. I asked if anyone knew where this could be found. If you want to repeat what I'm posting, post that one. It's the quote I'm actually looking for.

[PinSeeker]

Hence my point that it isn't we wo do the realizing in the first place. It is Christ, and there is no doubt or sin in Christ.

Um, okay, just clarifying here. Do you think we are no longer sinners?

I'm not suggesting that you're being adversarial.

LOL! I'm not suggesting that you're suggesting I'm being adversarial. You're the one being adversarial. And I don't really understand why, but whatever, man. I'm just saying there's no need.

I'm pointing out that you're not advancing an argument by repeating yourself or repeating what I already posted.

Right, because I'm not being adversarial. But you are. At any rate, no "advancing" of my "argument" necessary; what I've written is quite sufficient. Repitition seems necessary, though.

I don't assume anything; that would be putting words in your mouth, which I would never do. I only said that what you said was incomplete. Which it was.

No, you quoted Paul's words which were the exact same thing I just posted, and then you suggested I pay close attention to them. Why?

Because your reading of them is wrong, i.e.:

• a. Paul is not talking about the same thing in Philippians 2:12-13 (the Christian life) as he is in Romans 9 (who does what in salvation itself)
  b. we are the ones who do the willing and working in Philippians 2:13

You said the opposite of both a and b above.

Why would I need to scrutinize what Paul says when I just paraphrased his exact words?

Because you paraphrased Philippians 2:13 wrongly.

It's like you're just ignoring what I'm posting and pretending that I'm posting the exact opposite of what I'm actually posting.

No, I'm paying very close attention. No offense, but it seems to me you haven't really though some of these things through well enough.

You seem to think you're making some subtle point, but it's the same point I just made.

No, what you and I are saying regarding Philippians 2:13 is very different.

Yes, it is because God is working in us, so what you say here is true in that respect. But those two infinitive phrases ("to will" and "to work") refers to us.

Not when one has lost their identity in Christ. Not when Paul explicitly points out that it is "not by will or effort" (Rom.9:16)

In Romans 9, Paul is talking about God's sovereignty when it comes to salvation... having mercy upon whom he chooses, compassion on whom He will have compassion. Come on, you know that; you just said it.

In Philippians 2, though, Paul is talking about the Christian life -- be like Christ; do all things without grumbling or quarreling; be humble and regard one another as more important than yourselves... and so on. And he ends that little narrative with, God is working in you so that you will and work according to His will and for His good pleasure.

Then he may be addressing Christians, but not Christians that are born again under the new covenant. Those who are born into the new covenant don't have to try or will to do anything. Those are the conditions of the old covenant. Under the new covenant, it is as you already pointed out. It is God who compels obedience. Salvation doesn't end, and then resume where the old testament begins. It begins where the old testament failed. Trying to do God's will according to the flesh is the old covenant model.

Shnarkle, there is no distinction between "Christians" and "Christians that are born again." If one is not born again from above, he/she is not a Christian. And that's true for people in Old Testament times as well as New Testament times. All believers, regardless when they live, are saved by faith, which is itself a gift of God. In this way they are born again. Ephesians 2, 1 Peter 1, and Hebrews 11 are crystal clear on this.

To sin is to lose one's salvation.

Oh, my. No. So you do believe that as Christians, we are no longer sinners. Was Paul not a Christian, then, in your view? Paul said in Romans 7 that because of the sin in him, he was prone not to do the things he knew he should do, and prone to do the things he knew he should not do, acknowledging his wretchedness because of his sin. Paul even called himself, in 1 Timothy 1, the chief of sinners.

John, whose letter is addressed to brothers, fellow believers in Christ, fellow born-again Christians, says it well:

• But if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:8-9

The regenerated heart can't sin in the first place. If one still continues to sin, then they're just fooling themselves. Nowhere does the bible talk of regenerated hearts continuing to sin. This is a false assumption which most Christians make, probably due to caving in to peer pressure from other Christians to profess something that isn't actually a reality in their lives yet. It's nothing more than wishful thinking.

My goodness. No, the glorified heart can't sin, but of course we will not be glorified in this life, or on this side of glory. One great day, we will no longer be able to sin. Job repented of his sin in dust and ashes (Job 42). Read 1st and 2nd Samuel and the Psalms (again, because I assume you have), where David decried his sin over and over and over, and repented continuously. Read the book of James (again, because I assume you have). He admonished brothers -- fellow Christians -- to refrain from sin over and over and over. Why would they do that if they, as Christians, are incapable of sin?

If the truth has been revealed to you, you can't sin without placing yourself under God's wrath.

LOL! No, as Paul says in Romans 8, because we are in Christ Jesus, there is no longer any condemnation for us as believers despite our sin. It's not any kind of "license to sin," but we confess our sin to God and ask forgiveness for it, and most importantly repent of it. And God is faithful and just to forgive.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26

If there is no sacrifice to cover one's sins, then one is under the wrath of God.

Jesus is the Final Sacrifice, shnarkle. Hebrews 10:26 is talking about those who do not have God-given faith; therefore they sin willingly, and Jesus's sacrifice/atonement is not effectual for them; they are not redeemed.

This is why the bible talks of how God used to wink at sin, or look the other way, but not when one has had the truth revealed to them.

I'm not sure where you think the Bible says God "used to wink at sin," but in Romans 1 Paul speaks of God giving unbelievers over to their degrading passions and sin. But He hardly turns a blind eye from sin; God will certainly administer His justice and Judgment at the appointed time.

my argument... distinguishes between the Christian who must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin, and the Christian who has been regenerated.

Jesus's sacrifice is the reason it's possible for us to be redeemed from our sin and reconciled to God -- to be born again and thus to be Christians -- in the first place. Now, we don't need Him to do it again, because once was sufficient for all time.

The sole purpose of the new covenant is to keep God's commandments. Unlike the old covenant, trying to keep God's commandments isn't an option.

The Covenant is really the same, just now revealed in a better, Final Way.

...the conditions by which it is kept are completely different.

Nope. Very much the same. By faith. Hebrews 11.

Under the old covenant it was dependent upon one's "will and effort"...

Nope. The Old Testament believers had the books of Moses and the Prophets, which spoke of the Redeemer to come. They had a visual reminder, a type of the True Sacrifice to come in the sacrificial system that God instituted for them. Most notably, they were to regularly sacrifice a lamb without blemish, which was a foretaste -- a shadow -- of the true Lamb of God to come. Of course, just making the sacrifice did not atone for their sin, but their belief of God's promise and in His Redeemer to come and that He would give His life as an atonement for their sin and their redemption.

Similarly, New Testament believers (we) have the Lord's Supper and Baptism -- the sacraments -- that remind us of the Lamb of God that did come and gave His life as an atonement for our sin and our redemption.

There is no possibility of failure with God.

Ah, if that were only true in this life. With God all things are possible, regarding salvation, for sure. But God promises to bring us from death to life despite our failures.

Under the new covenant, no one sins anymore.

One great day, that will be true. But not in this life.

No one who has come to knowledge of the truth sins anymore. If you're still sinning then you haven't grasped the gravity of sin in your life.

No, if you're cognizant of your sin and repentant of it, then have grasped the full gravity of sin and your continuing need of Jesus Christ and further sanctification in the Holy Spirit. Everyone who has come to knowledge of the truth still sins... they know their sin; their sin is ever before them, as with David (Psalm 51).

I'm pointing out that as hard as we try to keep God's commandments, it will never lead to saving faith. Paul says something like this himself. I asked if anyone knew where this could be found. If you want to repeat what I'm posting, post that one. It's the quote I'm actually looking for.

Sure, Galatians 3. Agree with this.

But still, we sin. Not willingly, but because we are yet sinners; it's the human condition. As born-again Christians, we are redeemed sinners, but yet still sinners. Consider again:

• But if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:8-9

[shnarkle]

Hence my point that it isn't we wo do the realizing in the first place. It is Christ, and there is no doubt or sin in Christ.

Um, okay, just clarifying here. Do you think we are no longer sinners?

Do you think you're a sinner? It really doesn't matter if you think you're a sinner or not. This isn't about you or me. Debate is about the issue being debated, not the debater. That is known as the fallacy of Ad hominem.

Shnarkle, there is no distinction between "Christians" and "Christians that are born again." If one is not born again from above, he/she is not a Christian. And that's true for people in Old Testament times as well as New Testament times. All believers, regardless when they live, are saved by faith, which is itself a gift of God. In this way they are born again. Ephesians 2, 1 Peter 1, and Hebrews 11 are crystal clear on this.

What's clear to me is that you don't seem to have noticed that under the new covenant, there is no sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:26 Under the new covenant, God insures that his commandments are kept. Until that time, one must rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins. So there most definitely is a distinction to be made between those who still continue to sin and those who no longer sin. Paul distinguishes between them himself. You don't deny the former so I'll just focus on the latter e.g. Those who "walk after the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh" In other words, they don't sin. Paul asks, who can save him from this body of sin? He's not asking to be saved so he can sin, but to be saved from sin. The author of Hebrews points out that the new covenant covers "former sins'. He never says anything about it covering sins in the new covenant.

• But if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:8-9

Yep, and those are people who have not yet received a regenerated heart. Once they do, the new creature never sins again.

the glorified heart can't sin, but of course we will not be glorified in this life, or on this side of glory. One great day, we will no longer be able to sin. Job repented of his sin in dust and ashes (Job 42). Read 1st and 2nd Samuel and the Psalms (again, because I assume you have), where David decried his sin over and over and over, and repented continuously. Read the book of James (again, because I assume you have). He admonished brothers -- fellow Christians -- to refrain from sin over and over and over. Why would they do that if they, as Christians, are incapable of sin?

Because they're still under the conditions of the old covenant. They're still working to keep the law by their own will and effort. Under the new covenant, that all ends and one keeps the law according to God's promise by faith. This is the explicitly stated reason for the new covenant. Again, read Jeremiah 31;31-33; Ezekiel 11;19;36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26

If there is no sacrifice to cover one's sins, then one is under the wrath of God.

Jesus is the Final Sacrifice, shnarkle. Hebrews 10:26 is talking about those who do not have God-given faith;[/quote]

Nope. Read it again. His comments are referring to those who 'have received knowledge of the truth'

therefore they sin willingly,

No, you're missing out on a fundamental principle of the Mosaic law which is that it is only untintentional sin that is covered by sacrifice. Intentional sin never covered sacrifice.

Jesus's sacrifice is the reason it's possible for us to be redeemed from our sin and reconciled to God -- to be born again and thus to be Christians -- in the first place.

You're conflating what saves us legally(i.e. Christ's sacrifice) and receiving a regenerated heart (i.e. the new covenant). Christ dies while we're yet still sinners, but it is only when one receives the Spirit that they take hold of that salvation and becomes children of God. As children of God, there is no more sin. The new covenant doesn't allow for sin It quite simply isn't a possibility. It would be like saying that you're going to drive your gas engine using steam power.

The Covenant is really the same, just now revealed in a better, Final Way.

...the conditions by which it is kept are completely different.

Nope. Very much the same. By faith. Hebrews 11.[/quote]

The point is that when one keeps the law in their heart, they're keeping it by the faith of Christ rather than by their own will and effort. That makes all the difference in the world. It's the difference between keeping the law perfectly and failure.

Under the old covenant it was dependent upon one's "will and effort"...

Nope...

Moses assembled the children of Israel together and presented them with God's covenant. He said, before you is a choice. Accept the covenant and receive blessings, or don't and receive curses. Today, Christians do the same thing. They proclaim their acceptance of Christ into their lives, but they continue to sin. They're still living under the same conditions. When God gives them a new heart, they can't help but keep his commandments. Read the passages from Jer., Ezekiel, and Hebrews I suggested.

There is no possibility of failure with God.

Ah, if that were only true in this life. With God all things are possible, regarding salvation, for sure. But God promises to bring us from death to life despite our failures.

That's not good news, especially for those of us who are genuinely looking to be freed from the bondage of sin. We don't need to be told that we're saved only to then be informed that we will continue to sin. Christ says, "Go and sin no more". He points out that he will carry you when you can't. His burden is light, his yoke easy. EASY!!!

As Chesterton points out, the gospel is not disbelieved because there's anything wrong with it, it's rejected because it is too good to be true.

Under the new covenant, no one sins anymore.

One great day, that will be true. But not in this life.

I'm not denying that those who are still living a life of sin are going to continue to sin. I'm pointing out that when one is regenerated their old life is over. You agree with that, right? You just said, "not in this life", right?

You seem to think that I'm suggesting that those who are living in their old carnal life are going to be sin free. I'm not saying that at all. When the kingdom is revealed, one necessarily leaves their old life behind. This life of sin ends, when one enters into the kingdom.

If you want to repeat what I'm posting, post that one. It's the quote I'm actually looking for.

Sure, Galatians 3. Agree with this.

It's not Galatians 3. Thanks anyways. He says something to the effect that all the obedience of Israel didn't lead any of them to saving faith, or all the obedience didn't produce saving faith; something like that.

But still, we sin. Not willingly, but because we are yet sinners; it's the human condition. As born-again Christians, we are redeemed sinners, but yet still sinners.

Willingly or intentionally? The author of Hebrews is pointing to those who sin knowingly. In other words, one who intentionally or knowingly sins. One who does something they know is wrong has no possibility of salvation if they're under the new covenant. That's what Hebrews 10:26 is pointing out.

Even under the old covenant is effectively an abomination because to knowingly commit sin one must somehow justify it, and that's an abomination see Luke 16:15

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 23 by shnarkle]

Am I understanding you correctly that the new testament hasn't fully come, as the law is not written on everyone's hearts? So that no one has to search here nor there or cross the sea? If so, I agree.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 23 by shnarkle]

Am I understanding you correctly that the new testament hasn't fully come, as the law is not written on everyone's hearts? So that no one has to search here nor there or cross the sea? If so, I agree.

I don't know. I can't come to that conclusion because I'm not so sure that the gospels themselves might be pointing to this reality in the early church. I don't see these two options as mutually exclusive. I suspect that they can exist side by side just as the gospel narratives indicate. I suspect that all actually has been fulfilled. It makes sense.

The law is written on everyone's hearts, but the problem is that too many people don't know it or acknowledge it. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness. What I've noticed is that those who are going door to door, or claiming that they know God, and asking if you do, undoubtedly don't even know who they are, much less God. While those who do know God aren't asking people if they know God because they can see Christ in everyone they meet. They have the love of God dwelling within them so they live in a completely different world than everyone else. Yet they live side by side with everyone else.

Paul points this out when he writes his letters. He writes from God's perspective, but then he also points out to those who aren't there yet, that sometimes he must speak in terms those who are still deceived can understand (e.g. "I speak as a man")

One of the reasons I say this is because Zechariah talks of those who don't obey God after that great and terrible day of judgment. So clearly even though one may know God they will still be disobedient, and be subject to a good smiting from God.

He points out that everyone will be keeping God's feast days, the feast of tabernacles is mentioned specifically. Seems odd that God institutes these feast days for his chosen people, and then annuls them for his bride, but then reinstitutes them after he returns. My suspicion is that they haven't been annulled or suspended at all, just ignored by those who choose to disbelieve. Jesus says they're condemned already which is yet another indication that God's judgment is outside of our conceptions of time.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee...16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[PinSeeker]

Do you think you're a sinner?

I know I am; it's the human condition, our nature. Once one becomes a Christian --

• -- is caused (by God the Father according to His mercy) to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead and thus has obtained an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away and that is reserved in heaven for him/her, and is protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, and greatly rejoices in it (1 Peter 1:3-6)

... he/she does not cease to be a sinner (in this life), but then has a dual nature -- the old sinful nature (the old man, as Paul, puts it) and the new nature (new man) given by God by His Spirit. Thus the constant struggle to put off the old man and put on the new, which Paul is very explicit about, describing vividly his own struggle to do that, especially in Romans 7, as I said before. This is the lifelong process of sanctification, or being set apart, being made holy, like Jesus, and only God can make that happen (by His Spirit). But even though in this life that work is not complete for any of us, we can live as though it is... because we know it will eventually be brought to completion. This victory is both now and not yet, now in Christ Jesus, Who has won us the victory and made it certain, but not yet in that the work (His work, not ours) is not completed in us as human beings. But again, we can live as though it is -- and should -- because of its certainty.

It really doesn't matter if you think you're a sinner or not. This isn't about you or me.

Yes and no. You're right in that it's all about Jesus -- from Him and to Him and for Him are all things (Romans 11:36). But it absolutely does matter if one knows he is a sinner or not; our realization of our need for Jesus and to put off the old man and put on the new is directly proportional to our recognition of the weight of our own sin and our thankfulness to God for His mercy, to Jesus for His redeeming us from it, and the Spirit for His work in us that we could never do on our own. -- in short, our giving glory to God and loving Him and enjoying Him, which is our chief end.

What's clear to me is that you don't seem to have noticed that under the new covenant, there is no sacrifice for sin.

The New Covenant is all about Jesus, Who himself was/is the Final Sacrifice for sin (for believers in Old Testament times as well as New). I think you agree with me on that. I hope you do, anyway.

Those who "walk after the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh" In other words, they don't sin.

Nope. This verse points out not that the Christian no longer sins at all but rather his newly obtained opposition to sin itself now that he has been born again from above. Thus Paul's exhortation -- to Christians -- in Romans 8:5 to "in earnest... mortify the deeds of the body, and to walk in newness of life." And this is right after (in the same breath as) what he has just said of himself (and of all Christians), "I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.... no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Paul asks, who can save him from this body of sin? He's not asking to be saved so he can sin, but to be saved from sin.

Well of course! But in so doing, he's acknowledging that he still sins (falls short of the glory of God), despite his knowledge that it is an affront to God and despite the fact that he now desires not to sin (not fall short of God's glory).

Yep, and those are people who have not yet received a regenerated heart. Once they do, the new creature never sins again.

Nope, just that there's now no condemnation for the sin of the born-again believer (Romans 8:1).

The rest is just repetition of previously covered ground. If you don't think you still sin, at least from time to time... Well, that doesn't mean you're not a Christian, I would just say it just means you have some soul-searching (and Bible searching) to do.

There's plenty of other stuff in your previous couple of posts to straighten out, too, but I'm respectfully declining to do so at this point.

A question for you, shnarkle. Do you go to a church? And if so, what kind of church?

Grace and peace to you.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 26 by PinSeeker]

Given that we're talking past each other and you can't seem to refrain from engaging in ad hominem, I see no point in pursuing this any further.

[PinSeeker]

Given that we're talking past each other and you can't seem to refrain from engaging in ad hominem, I see no point in pursuing this any further.

That's perfectly fine with me, shnarkle, but if you're going accuse me of "engaging in ad hominem," I would say that's quite the example of the pot calling the kettle black.

Cheers, my friend. Grace and peace to you.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 23 by shnarkle]

Am I understanding you correctly that the new testament hasn't fully come, as the law is not written on everyone's hearts? So that no one has to search here nor there or cross the sea? If so, I agree.

I don't know. I can't come to that conclusion because I'm not so sure that the gospels themselves might be pointing to this reality in the early church. I don't see these two options as mutually exclusive. I suspect that they can exist side by side just as the gospel narratives indicate. I suspect that all actually has been fulfilled. It makes sense.

The law is written on everyone's hearts, but the problem is that too many people don't know it or acknowledge it. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness. What I've noticed is that those who are going door to door, or claiming that they know God, and asking if you do, undoubtedly don't even know who they are, much less God. While those who do know God aren't asking people if they know God because they can see Christ in everyone they meet. They have the love of God dwelling within them so they live in a completely different world than everyone else. Yet they live side by side with everyone else.

Paul points this out when he writes his letters. He writes from God's perspective, but then he also points out to those who aren't there yet, that sometimes he must speak in terms those who are still deceived can understand (e.g. "I speak as a man")

One of the reasons I say this is because Zechariah talks of those who don't obey God after that great and terrible day of judgment. So clearly even though one may know God they will still be disobedient, and be subject to a good smiting from God.

He points out that everyone will be keeping God's feast days, the feast of tabernacles is mentioned specifically. Seems odd that God institutes these feast days for his chosen people, and then annuls them for his bride, but then reinstitutes them after he returns. My suspicion is that they haven't been annulled or suspended at all, just ignored by those who choose to disbelieve. Jesus says they're condemned already which is yet another indication that God's judgment is outside of our conceptions of time.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee...16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah shows what is evidenced elsewhere in the OT and NT. God's law is for Israel and those who Sojourn with Israel. There is one law for both. One for mankind.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 5 by PinSeeker]

Perhaps the word "show" is the operative word. To produce.