Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

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polonius
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Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

In the Bible we read that Mary and Joseph had seven children. Why is Mary referred to as "ever virgin."

NRSV Matthew 1:25

"He had no relations with her until she bore a son,* and he named him Jesus."

brianbbs67
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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #2

Post by brianbbs67 »

polonius wrote: In the Bible we read that Mary and Joseph had seven children. Why is Mary referred to as "ever virgin."

NRSV Matthew 1:25

"He had no relations with her until she bore a son,* and he named him Jesus."
I do not know what your "ever virgin" is about. But yes, they had children. James, simeon, jude were the first church leaders.

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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

polonius wrote: In the Bible we read that Mary and Joseph had seven children. Why is Mary referred to as "ever virgin."

NRSV Matthew 1:25

"He had no relations with her until she bore a son,* and he named him Jesus."
I believe that Mary and Joseph had other children besides Jesus. I do no understand the RCCs obsession with keeping Mary as a perpetual virgin. Sex within the context of marriage is no sin, and would not detract from Mary's righteousness, though I suppose it would hinder the Church's attempt to Deify her.

Or it is one of those contingent doctrines stemming from the belief that Jesus is God. That doctrine, necessitates all kinds of other doctrines, especially if one holds to the doctrine of "original sin" for the rest of us.

Almost like one lie begets another, until there is a complex web of lies, whereas Truth is usually quite simple and straightforward.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

RightReason
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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #4

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

The history and teaching regarding Mary by Christ’s Church are quite beautiful as well as Scriptural and significant. You ought to take the time to look into them . . .

Most Protestants claim that Mary bore children other than Jesus. To support their claim, these Protestants refer to the biblical passages which mention the “brethren of the Lord.� As explained in the Catholic Answers tract Brethren of the Lord, neither the Gospel accounts nor the early Christians attest to the notion that Mary bore other children besides Jesus. The faithful knew, through the witness of Scripture and Tradition, that Jesuswas Mary’s only child and that she remained a lifelong virgin.

An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.

According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: “The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ� (Patrology, 1:120–1).

To begin with, the Protoevangelium records that when Mary’s birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity.

However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated “virgin of the Lord,� to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, according to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus’ adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).

According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph was required to regard Mary’s vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow. Keeping this in mind, it is an incredible insult to the Blessed Virgin to say that she broke her vow by bearing children other than her Lord and God, who was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been reconciled with the biblical references to Christ’s brethren through a proper understanding of the meaning of the term “brethren.� The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus’ step brothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ’s brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as “brethren.� The Catholic Church allows the faithful to hold either view, since both are compatible with the reality of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary’s virginity and the proper interpretation of “the brethren of the Lord.� And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves—Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-ever-virgin


Virginity is a higher estate than marriage. That’s not some bitter anti-human enthusiasm left over from the Dark Ages. That’s Paul of Tarsus, who sums up the Catholic picture succinctly: “He who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better� (1 Cor 7:38). St. Paul is just repeating the teaching of his Master, whose disciples once shrugged at His teaching on lifetime fidelity in marriage by saying, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry� (Mt 19:10). Those disciples were surprised when He didn’t correct their wisecrack, but agreed with them, saying,

Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it. (Mt 19:10-12)

So the relationship between marital sex and virginity is not “bad/good,� but “good/better.�


John sees Mary as a sign and icon of the Church, just as the early Fathers did. All of them thought her virginity, like Christ’s, was significant. For Mary is the model disciple whose sacrificial offering of virginity responds to Christ’s sacrificial offering, just as the disciple’s offering of the body as a “living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God� is the fitting response of worship to the Lord (Rom 12:1). More than anybody, Mary models the self-donating love of the disciple in imitation of Christ.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... ecnum=9759

bjs
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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #5

Post by bjs »

[Replying to polonius]

The Roman Church says that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were step-siblings.

The Eastern Orthodox Church usually says that reference to Jesus’ brothers and sisters is a reference to his cousins, which is a possible but abnormal translation of the Greek text.

Most Protestant denomination say that Mary did not remain a virgin long after the birth of Jesus.

I don’t believe that a person is required to hold to any one of these specific views to be considered an orthodox Christian.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #6

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 5 by bjs]

Yes the were all Half siblings because of a different father and in some cases a different mother. Who was James the Just?

From the Wikkans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus

This also shows who the leader of the Jerusalem church was....

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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #7

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
polonius wrote: In the Bible we read that Mary and Joseph had seven children. Why is Mary referred to as "ever virgin."

NRSV Matthew 1:25

"He had no relations with her until she bore a son,* and he named him Jesus."

Yes, it is not just the reference to Christ's brothers (sons of the same mother); it is also this passage that you have quoted.

From the ESV:

"When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name [Jesus]."


Meaning he did know ( https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1097&t=KJV ) Mary... just not until she had given birth.

**

Virginity is a higher estate than marriage. That’s not some bitter anti-human enthusiasm left over from the Dark Ages. That’s Paul of Tarsus, who sums up the Catholic picture succinctly: “He who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better� (1 Cor 7:38).

This quote fails to mention the reason Paul gave for why he thought it would be better for a man or a woman not to marry (and it does not have anything to do with being a virgin):

But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this...

I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband.


Virgin or not, Mary was a married woman - and it is the status of marriage about which Paul is speaking. But there is no sin in her having been married and having relations with Joseph, her husband.



Peace again to you!

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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #8

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 7 by tam]
"When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name [Jesus]."


Meaning he did know ( https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1097&t=KJV ) Mary... just not until she had given birth.

^This is refuted:


Scripture’s statement that Joseph “knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn� would not necessarily mean they did “know� each other after she brought forth Jesus. Untilis often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.� Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

• 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)

• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)

• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.�)

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... -virginity

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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #9

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 7 by tam]
But there is no sin in her having been married and having relations with Joseph, her husband.
There is if she made a vow to God to consecrate herself to Him and remain a virgin for the Kingdom of God. Also, there is nothing wrong with giving oneself entirely to Our Lord – yes, even one’s sexuality! It is a beautiful thing and should be commended for the beautiful voluntary offering that it is. Our oversexed culture can’t understand a love and devotion like this. But Mary and Joseph understood it.

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Re: Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

Post #10

Post by brianbbs67 »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 7 by tam]
"When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name [Jesus]."


Meaning he did know ( https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1097&t=KJV ) Mary... just not until she had given birth.

^This is refuted:


Scripture’s statement that Joseph “knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn� would not necessarily mean they did “know� each other after she brought forth Jesus. Untilis often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.� Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

• 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)

• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)

• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.�)

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... -virginity
Oh come on, Christ's church got it wrong and we have to look to other sources??

God is the one who makes Christ's enemies his foot stool.

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