The Irrelevance of the Bible

[Jagella]

Question for Debate: Is the Bible relevant today to anybody including Christians regarding concepts or practices that are valued, applicable, or ethical?

I think it's safe to say that most people including many Christians no longer believe the world was created in six days, that figures like Noah and Jonah existed, that Jesus' teachings need to be followed or that we even know enough about him to know what he really taught, that wiping out a military enemy including men, women, and children is acceptable, or that women are inferior to men and should be subordinate to men. Yet all of these ideas come directly from the Bible, the "foundation-document of Christianity."

The Bible has become irrelevant to our knowledge of the world, our daily practical activities, and our morality.

Bible scholar Hector Avalos writes that the numbers demonstrate that the Bible has no more relevance to almost all of us. He cites a Gallup poll, for example, that reveals that only four in ten Americans know that Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount!

I'm not surprised. Few if any of of us need to know who preached the Sermon on the Mount. We don't practice its moral tenets, and we are probably better off for not doing so. Not to mention that we, unlike Christ, know better than to believe that illness is caused by demons. If anybody does become ill, then we first seek medical attention, and the prayer Christ taught is at best an afterthought. Unlike Christ, we have protested against slavery and have abolished it in the developed nations.

So yes, by our actions we speak more loudly than our words that the Bible is irrelevant to us. If it has any use at all, it is at best a way to give some of us hope for a life beyond the grave, but even that hope has been now recognized as forlorn by many of us who wouldn't want it even if it was real.

[SallyF]

Quite so …

Quasi-Atheist (Progressive) Christians look to me to have trashed almost all of their Bible, along with the unpleasantly detailed biblical descriptions of what was once their version of "God".

Even Fundamentalist Christians have large swathes of "scripture" that seem to me to not ever make it onto the agenda at Bible Camp.

Some of we New Atheists, however, have fished it back out again and wiped off the Bolognese sauce, and re-examined it from as objective a viewpoint as we can …

And once freed from the trap of belief, we find we have what looks to me to be a collection of fascinating political allegory. No magic, no real floods, no actual stars scurrying around the Middle East to embarrass Progressive Christians - just plain, common, down-to-earth human politics, wrapped up in fantastical stories for the everyday folk to believe in.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 2 by SallyF]

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[Jagella]

The Bible has been trashed in a way, but unlike trash, the Bible was never really useful, or if it was useful, it was useful in the control of people for nefarious purposes.

Quasi-Atheist (Progressive) Christians look to me to have trashed almost all of their Bible, along with the unpleasantly detailed biblical descriptions of what was once their version of "God"

I do hope those "quasi-atheists" keep progressing by admitting that the God of their Bible is every bit as "figurative" as Noah's Ark.

Even Fundamentalist Christians have large swathes of "scripture" that seem to me to not ever make it onto the agenda at Bible Camp.

I've often wondered if the little kiddies are taught Bible passages like Song of Solomon 4:5 (NRSV):

Your two breasts are like two fawns,
twins of a gazelle,
that feed among the lilies.

If the Bible can say stuff like this, then why make a fuss over Hustler Magazine?

And once freed from the trap of belief, we find we have what looks to me to be a collection of fascinating political allegory. No magic, no real floods, no actual stars scurrying around the Middle East to embarrass Progressive Christians - just plain, common, down-to-earth human politics, wrapped up in fantastical stories for the everyday folk to believe in.

Religion is politics with magic tossed into the mix.

[1213]

Question for Debate: Is the Bible relevant today to anybody including Christians regarding concepts or practices that are valued, applicable, or ethical?

To me it is.

...Unlike Christ, we have protested against slavery and have abolished it in the developed nations...

Jesus told in the Bible:

…You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat. 22:37-39

I don’t see how person who does that, can keep slaves (workers against their will). But I think that is as common as it ever was, because most people must pay taxes. Person who has to pay taxes is not free.

It is also said:

… all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

How could one be called Christian (=disciple of Jesus), if he doesn’t care what Jesus said and don’t live by his teachings?

And it is sad that human trafficking is actually increasing in “developed countries� that have rejected Christianity.

A new UN report published on Monday shows that human trafficking is on the rise and taking on “horrific dimensions�, with sexual exploitation of victims the main driver. Children now account for 30 per cent of those being trafficked, and far more girls are detected than boys…. … Asia and the Americas are the regions which have seen the largest increase in the numbers of victims detected…. … Trafficking for sexual exploitation is the most prevalent form in European countries…

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/01/1029912

[JehovahsWitness]

... just plain, common, down-to-earth human politics...

What can be more relevant than human politics?

POLITICS

1a : the art or science of government
b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy
c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics

In anything, politics has become the burning issue of our day, which would arguably make the the most relevant of the ancient books.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... 8-jan-feb/



RELATED POSTS

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 5 by 1213]

How could one be called Christian (=disciple of Jesus), if he doesn’t care what Jesus said and don’t live by his teachings?

And it is sad that human trafficking is actually increasing in “developed countries� that have rejected Christianity.

The possibly fictional Jesus character in the sectarian literature is not written of as teaching anything about slavery (or homosexuality).

However, because Jesus is "God", there are several instances when the Jesus God advocated for slavery in his earlier literature. There is even one instance when his possibly fictional prophet, Moses, ordered his men to go back - in true ISIS style - and ethnically cleanse more humans from a land the Jesus God said they could have, and help themselves to some yummy virgins; who, we may safely say (if this is the "word of God and therefore it really happened) they helped themselves to them as sex slaves.

If one's humanist moral conscience tells one that slavery, and the killing of the parents of innocent virgin girls you fancy keeping as sex slaves is wrong, one needs to bung one's Bible in the bin.

Or at least shove one's head firmly into the sand when it comes to the bits one doesn't like.

Or deliberately omit the bits one knows are human writings that are just plain evil and wrong … in the literature one is trying to pass off as the supposed "Word of God".

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]

In anything, politics has become the burning issue of our day, which would arguably make the the most relevant of the ancient books

I doubt that you are agreeing with me that the biblical propaganda has nothing whatsoever to do with gods, and looks to me very much like political allegory and slander.

However, if one were to follow the political guidelines of the biblical propaganda, one would insist that we all live in a religious (presumably JW) dictatorship, filled with murderous ethnic cleansing and the capture of virgin sex slaves (for the JW men, I expect) in the true style exhibited by ISIS. Because, JW pacifism notwithstanding, that is what one has as one's political precedent in the biblical propaganda.

Biblical democracy is never taught by Jesus or anyone else in the biblical fantasyland. In fact Jesus is going to come back with legions of angels and exterminate all non-Christians (and perhaps all non-JW Christians …?) and institute a theocracy at any moment.

And, in another fact, democracy is unbiblical - remember the Korah incident from when Jesus was "God" in the OT.

If one wants biblical political relevance to today, one needs to bung most of one's Bible in the bin, and make a very human, independent, think-for-yourself choice about the bits one is going to scrape back out and wash down and serve up as palatable "scripture".

[Jagella]

Question for Debate: Is the Bible relevant today to anybody including Christians regarding concepts or practices that are valued, applicable, or ethical?

To me it is.

For those who think Christian faith is important, the Bible may be relevant as a basis for that faith. However, even many Christians don't bother to read it much if at all. It could be that many Christians just want to believe they are heaven-bound, and it isn't necessary to read the Bible. My parents were like that.

Jesus told in the Bible:

…You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat. 22:37-39

I don’t see how person who does that, can keep slaves (workers against their will).

That's a very good point. As I've tried many times to explain to Tam, to love a person may not necessarily mean to do no harm to that person. For example, many men and women will love their partners yet still hurt them. In the case of slavery, a master may love his slaves in that he values them and wants to maintain ownership over them, much like a dairy-farmer values his cattle and wants to continue to own them. Yet in both cases, that which is owned may he harmed from time to time to maintain control over what is owned.

I think Christ's view of slavery was like this. He saw no conflict between owning a slave and loving that slave. His love was an authoritarian love, and I think that's why he described himself as "the good shepherd." A shepherd owns his sheep, and he loves those sheep in that he values them as his property.

How could one be called Christian (=disciple of Jesus), if he doesn’t care what Jesus said and don’t live by his teachings?

Some Christians have told me that they are imperfect but are forgiven. They will say that they are not saved by any law but by grace (unmerited favor). For them, obeying the commandments of Jesus as reported in the Bible is irrelevant to their faith.

And it is sad that human trafficking is actually increasing in “developed countries� that have rejected Christianity.

That UN News report looks mixed to me as far as the prevalence of human trafficking in non-Christian countries is concerned. It states:

Trafficking for sexual exploitation is the most prevalent form in European countries, whilst in sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East, forced labour is the main factor driving the illicit trade.

Although Christianity is shrinking in European countries, some say it is increasing in sub-Saharan African countries. So human trafficking does not appear to be affected by Christianity.

Oh, and human trafficking is a problem in the Middle East. What religion got its start there?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

With our ability to fly across the Atlantic we have grown away from sensational ideas such as: "Help your neighbour" and "don't kill people." These ideas are still relevant, but we have moved from infancy and understand them better than Peter or Judas.


If we want magical fiction, Rowling has provided it. And Harry Potter seems a better model for children than does the show-off boy Jesus, wandless in Gaza.


We may of course envy Methuselah's longevity, nearly 1000 years old or Solomon with his 1000 wives and sleepless Arabian nights.


Regarded as fiction these bible tales have been surpassed. Taken as some sort of divine fact, they are still dangerous in the wrong hands.

The derivative tome, the Koran, retains its relevance today because we've to check our seats for strange packages when we take that trans-Atlantic flight. Jesus may have shared Muhammad's illiteracy but he lacked his acumen. Jesus said he didn't know what waited us. Muhammad, to rousing cheers from lusty, bearded followers, promised pretty women on green couches.