The Irrelevance of the Bible

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Jagella
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The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

Question for Debate: Is the Bible relevant today to anybody including Christians regarding concepts or practices that are valued, applicable, or ethical?

I think it's safe to say that most people including many Christians no longer believe the world was created in six days, that figures like Noah and Jonah existed, that Jesus' teachings need to be followed or that we even know enough about him to know what he really taught, that wiping out a military enemy including men, women, and children is acceptable, or that women are inferior to men and should be subordinate to men. Yet all of these ideas come directly from the Bible, the "foundation-document of Christianity."

The Bible has become irrelevant to our knowledge of the world, our daily practical activities, and our morality.

Bible scholar Hector Avalos writes that the numbers demonstrate that the Bible has no more relevance to almost all of us. He cites a Gallup poll, for example, that reveals that only four in ten Americans know that Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount!

I'm not surprised. Few if any of of us need to know who preached the Sermon on the Mount. We don't practice its moral tenets, and we are probably better off for not doing so. Not to mention that we, unlike Christ, know better than to believe that illness is caused by demons. If anybody does become ill, then we first seek medical attention, and the prayer Christ taught is at best an afterthought. Unlike Christ, we have protested against slavery and have abolished it in the developed nations.

So yes, by our actions we speak more loudly than our words that the Bible is irrelevant to us. If it has any use at all, it is at best a way to give some of us hope for a life beyond the grave, but even that hope has been now recognized as forlorn by many of us who wouldn't want it even if it was real.

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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #31

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

If you know Christ, you know He opposed slavery, which is why Christians were at the forefront in putting an end to slavery.
So yes, by our actions we speak more loudly than our words that the Bible is irrelevant to us.
Yes, unfortunately this can be true, but not for all. So, do not lump lukewarm Christians with other Christians. It is dishonest.
If it has any use at all, it is at best a way to give some of us hope for a life beyond the grave, but even that hope has been now recognized as forlorn by many of us who wouldn't want it even if it was real.
You miss it all Jagella, but thank you for your honesty. I think that is what it really comes down to. Truth be told, even if Christians were better witnesses to their faith, you wouldn’t be interested. You have made up your mind and now suggest ignorant Christians are a reason you have rejected Christ.

It’s a free country.

I personally am a Christian who finds the Bible and Christ’s Church very relevant. I refer to both on a daily basis. It is impossible to have peace/joy living contrary to God’s law.

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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #32

Post by Tcg »

RightReason wrote:
If you know Christ, you know He opposed slavery, which is why Christians were at the forefront in putting an end to slavery.

If the Christ you are referring to is the Jesus of the Bible, you'd be able to present where he did so. You seem to know some other Christ.

The fact that SOME Christians apposed slavery centuries after the time Jesus supposedly lived, says nothing about Jesus. Thankfully, some of them held a higher morality than he did. Thankfully, some of us still do.


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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #33

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to Tcg]
If the Christ you are referring to is the Jesus of the Bible, you'd be able to present where he did so. You seem to know some other Christ.
Well, there is ample evidence from the Bible that Jesus was pro life and anti-slavery. He always reached out to the downtrodden, the oppressed, the forgotten. He conversed with foreigners, Samaritans, tax collectors, adulterers, etc. He treated every person with dignity and respect and preached always about loving your neighbor and even loving your enemies. And even in the Old Testament, Mosaic Law was all about holding God’s people to a higher standard than the pagans. Mosaic Law forbade mistreating slaves. At that time, slavery was part of the culture. God knew He first had to change people’s hearts, which is exactly what He proceeded to do. The OT is about man’s journey in becoming better people and eventually learning it isn’t about the Law, rather what is in a person’s heart.

AND it wouldn’t matter if we couldn’t derive this from the Bible because as Christians the Bible has never been our sole authority. We are expected to listen to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (the Bible) and we can know the man of Jesus Christ in the personal relationship we have with Him and how He reveals Himself to us. The Church, has always stood up for the most vulnerable among us. She continues to fight today for the poor, the unborn, and the dignity of the human person. So, yes, I guess I seem to know a different Christ than the anti-Christian one you have been indoctrinated with.

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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #34

Post by Jagella »

RightReason wrote:If you know Christ, you know He opposed slavery, which is why Christians were at the forefront in putting an end to slavery.
You're generalizing Christians. Why is generalizing Christians only wrong if the alleged generalizing is negative in some way?

At any rate, only some Christians like the Quakers opposed slavery. Other Christians condoned slavery. In both cases, these Christians based their positions on slavery on the Bible. They had one Christ whose words resulted in two diametrically-opposed positions on a vitally important social issue. How, then, did Christ make a difference in the effort to abolish slavery?

I've often wondered if Christianity is opposed to slavery, then why did it take Christians almost nineteen centuries to understand Christ's supposed opposition to it and put an end to it.
Yes, unfortunately this can be true, but not for all. So, do not lump lukewarm Christians with other Christians. It is dishonest.
Uh uhhh! We are not to accuse other members of dishonesty. [-X

We have here an example of objecting to the alleged generalizing of Christians in a negative way (see what I said above). Personally, I prefer lukewarm Christianity. It's the sincere practice of Christianity that scares me.
...if Christians were better witnesses to their faith, you wouldn’t be interested. You have made up your mind and now suggest ignorant Christians are a reason you have rejected Christ.
Uh uhhh! We are not to attack other members. [-X

It does appear that difficulty in converting people to Christianity can be frustrating. I've heard many apologists gripe about skeptics being so stubborn refusing to believe what the apologist is claiming. As far as I know few if any apologists examine their logic and evidence to see if the problem lies therein.
I personally am a Christian who finds the Bible and Christ’s Church very relevant. I refer to both on a daily basis. It is impossible to have peace/joy living contrary to God’s law.
I have peace and joy without observing any religious laws. I don't need the Bible or any church to live my life. However, I do recognize the possibility that some people do need or think they need the Bible and the church.

Have you ever gone without Christianity to check to see if it really makes that much difference for you?

In summary, allow me to point out that your position on generalizing Christians is inconsistent in that positive generalizing is welcome while you object to what you think is negative stereotyping. In addition, your arguments fail to substantiate that the Bible was relevant in the abolition of slavery because we know from history that different positions on slavery were based on the same Bible. Finally, I'm left wondering why the Bible is relevant to you if others can disregard it without penalty.

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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #35

Post by Jagella »

Tcg wrote:If the Christ you are referring to is the Jesus of the Bible, you'd be able to present where he did so. You seem to know some other Christ.
That "other Christ" is a modern invention. The Jesus of the twenty-first century is a sweet and loving guy who wouldn't hurt a fly. He favors equal rights for women and opposes slavery. He champions the poor while opposing "Godless communism" that threatens the wealth of western capitalists. He no longer burns people in hell because to do so would be inhumane. He even shows up in online forums!

So it appears that if Christ is to remain relevant, he must be changed to fit the image of what we want from a savior in the modern world. It is yet to be seen if this effort to maintain the relevance of Christ and the Bible will succeed.

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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #36

Post by 1213 »

benchwarmer wrote: Please enlighten us what you think the men did with the young virgins that they were to "keep alive for themselves". You can't really be that naive to think that these young women were simply taken in and treated like family. Can you?
It is probable that they were treated well. If the Jews would not have been righteous, God would not have been on their side. And if they were righteous, they would not have raped or kept sex-slaves.

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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #37

Post by Zzyzx »

.
1213 wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Please enlighten us what you think the men did with the young virgins that they were to "keep alive for themselves". You can't really be that naive to think that these young women were simply taken in and treated like family. Can you?
It is probable that they were treated well. If the Jews would not have been righteous, God would not have been on their side. And if they were righteous, they would not have raped or kept sex-slaves.
Yes, people CAN be that naive.

If their daughter was involved they might suddenly become more realistic or rational.
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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #38

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote:
It is probable that they were treated well.

This is clearly not the case. Their grandfathers, grandmothers, fathers, mothers, uncles, aunts, brothers, non-virgin sisters, nephews, non-virgin nieces and countless friends were brutally slaughtered due to God's favoritism.

This is the very antithesis of being "treated well." The cases of PTSD and other mental health issues would be staggering. The idea of a living a normal life after such an experience is a inconceivable.


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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #39

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 34 by Jagella]
RightReason wrote:

If you know Christ, you know He opposed slavery, which is why Christians were at the forefront in putting an end to slavery.
At any rate, only some Christians like the Quakers opposed slavery. Other Christians condoned slavery. In both cases, these Christians based their positions on slavery on the Bible. They had one Christ whose words resulted in two diametrically-opposed positions on a vitally important social issue. How, then, did Christ make a difference in the effort to abolish slavery?
I can’t speak for all Christians. Christ’s established Church opposed slavery and did not use the Bible to support it, rather helped fight against it.
've often wondered if Christianity is opposed to slavery, then why did it take Christians almost nineteen centuries to understand Christ's supposed opposition to it and put an end to it.
Gee, if human beings opposed slavery, why did it take them so long to put an end to it?
Quote:
I personally am a Christian who finds the Bible and Christ’s Church very relevant. I refer to both on a daily basis. It is impossible to have peace/joy living contrary to God’s law.


I have peace and joy without observing any religious laws.
Then you either are not living contrary to God’s law or I suggest you might be gilding the lily.
I don't need the Bible or any church to live my life.
And I’m sure you actually believe that.
Have you ever gone without Christianity to check to see if it really makes that much difference for you?
Yep, the first half of my life.
In summary, allow me to point out that your position on generalizing Christians is inconsistent in that positive generalizing is welcome while you object to what you think is negative stereotyping.
Allow me to point out, I often use the general term Christian for conversation purposes. It is a term that we can take to mean those who believe in Jesus, but make no mistake I do not consider all Christians good/right/on the right track/living as Christ taught, etc. Quite frankly, I think pretty much every Christian who isn’t Catholic and many Catholics as well are getting lots of things wrong. But again, using the term Christian is for discussion purposes.
In addition, your arguments fail to substantiate that the Bible was relevant in the abolition of slavery because we know from history that different positions on slavery were based on the same Bible.
Someone can claim they killed someone because of they thought that is what some television show they watches was telling them to do. That doesn’t mean it’s true. It means the individual got it very wrong.

And I already explained I have no obligation to show the Bible is relevant in ending slavery (although, in my opinion there is a great deal of evidence showing Christ taught exactly the message that helped people realize we need to do a much better job in how we treat one another). As a believer in Christ, the Bible is not my only authoritative source outlining every move I should make. You misunderstand what the Bible is.
Finally, I'm left wondering why the Bible is relevant to you if others can disregard it without penalty.
First, not sure what you mean by “without penalty�. Also, why would what others do have to do with what I find relevant?

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Re: The Irrelevance of the Bible

Post #40

Post by Tcg »

Jagella wrote:
At any rate, only some Christians like the Quakers opposed slavery.

While this become more the case after the American Revolution, some Quakers owned slaves:
  • For well over one hundred years, slave ownership did not violate Quaker principles. Some Quakers owned slaves prior to the American Revolution and others retained that status even after the American colonists won their freedom from Great Britain.

    https://beyondthehistorytextbooks.com/2 ... ve-owners/
It is important to note that Quaker principles aren't based on the Bible or any set dogma, but rather the "inner light" of the members themselves. The fact that Quakers did eventually appose slavery can't be credited to the Bible, but to the conscience of the Quakers.


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