What is the church Christ founded?

[marco]

From Matthew 16 we have:

17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.



Discussion has taken place over what Christ meant here. It seems clear enough he was using a pun on Peter's name, a rock, when he was founding his earthly church on Peter's shoulders.


That would give authority to the RC Church which takes Peter as the first Pope.


However it is argued that Jesus meant that HE was the rock and he was founding his Church on himself, as rock. As the words stand, that seems a spurious interpretation.

So what do the words mean?

[polonius]

[quote="polonius"]
JW posted:

(quote) Quote:
MATTHEW 28/19? 20

(quote) "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." (/quote)

RESPONSE There are five baptisms described in the New Testament. ALL are in the name of Jesus alone, never a Trinity. What does that tell us about an interpolation of Matthew's gospel at some later date? When does a "Trinity" first appear in church history?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 121 by polonius]

I'm not sure why you have addressed this response to me, cojld you clarify what in my post you are responding to?

My Post: Is preaching related to the illustration of the "Sheep and the Goats"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 288#976288



JW

[PinSeeker]

That's okay, JW. I'll get this one for you.

When does a "Trinity" first appear in church history?

Genesis 1. In the beginning.

Grace and peace to you all.

[brianbbs67]

That's okay, JW. I'll get this one for you.

When does a "Trinity" first appear in church history?

Genesis 1. In the beginning.

Grace and peace to you all.

Interesting , please explain with verses from Genesis 1.

[PinSeeker]

Interesting , please explain with verses from Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:1-2, 26. No explanation necessary, I hope. If so, couple those verses with John 1:1.

[Eloi]

There is no trinity at all in Gen.1; on the contrary, the simple fact that Jehovah is talking with another spirit-person about creating someone else in their "image and likeness" and resulting that that created being was Adam, indicates that the person with whom Jehovah is speaking shared His "image and likeness" (as the prospected new creation would), not that to whom the expression "let us make" is adressed to, is GOD like the One speaking.

[brianbbs67]

Interesting , please explain with verses from Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:1-2, 26. No explanation necessary, I hope. If so, couple those verses with John 1:1.

The Hebrew for 1 and 2 is the same words when the flood waters receded. A mighty wind came across the Earth. 26 God Speaks to the heavenly host. (YhVH is not talking to himself.) John 1;1c has been willfully misconstrued from 2 milliania. Koine Greek has no indefinite articles like English. Koine does have definite articles. tov Thoes, means THE GOD. If the Logos was Thoes exactly, the verse would end , Logos was THE THEON. Not (a) god was the logos.

[marco]

26 God Speaks to the heavenly host. (YhVH is not talking to himself.)

You are aware this cannot be anything but figurative, given no human observer heard these words. To discuss them as if they were verbatim is rather pointless.

John 1;1c has been willfully misconstrued from 2 milliania.

An amazing thing to say - that billions have wilfully twisted John's meaning for two millennia. There's a case for taking the word was God and the wprd was god-like. If John had been interested in clarity he would not have started his gospel so mysteriously. Analysing Greek grammar hardly gets us into heaven and certainly doesn't give us a perfect interpretation of John's provocative opening. I've read the gospel in a few languages and they all prefer "and the word was God." I suspect other interpretations are sought to make John comply with some modern theology.

[PinSeeker]

Interesting , please explain with verses from Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:1-2, 26. No explanation necessary, I hope. If so, couple those verses with John 1:1.

The Hebrew for 1 and 2 is the same words when the flood waters receded. A mighty wind came across the Earth. 26 God Speaks to the heavenly host. (YhVH is not talking to himself.) John 1;1c has been willfully misconstrued from 2 milliania. Koine Greek has no indefinite articles like English. Koine does have definite articles. tov Thoes, means THE GOD. If the Logos was Thoes exactly, the verse would end , Logos was THE THEON. Not (a) god was the logos.

Bbsbrian67, you seem to be making my point for me, or at least helping me to make it. Yes, Logos is THE GOD made flesh. Also, it strikes me as very... curious... that JW likes your post, since Jehovah's Witnesses have inserted "a" between "was" and "God" in John 1 in a willful misconstruing of God's Word, which is ironically what they accuse others of having done over the centuries.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Genesis 1:26 would be God (JAH) speaking to His Son. God and His Son are the 'us' and the 'our' in 'let us make man in our image'.


This verse does not show a 'trinity'.