Calvin

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RightReason
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Post #1

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 424 by PinSeeker]
Calvin is motivated more by hatred than truth.

Sure, hatred of "violence" done to God's Word. That's a good thing. Yes, he and the rest of the Reformers hated the way Catholicism had ripped Christianity from its Biblical roots. I do, too. But Calvin loved his Catholic brethren, and I do, too.
Ripped Christianity from its Biblical roots? Wouldn’t that be what leaving Christ’s established Church and starting a new one be doing?
Calvin's hatred is of anything that would detract from God's glory, too.
So, you don’t think it detracts from God’s glory to usurp His Church? To speak on matters one has no authority to speak on? To reinterpret Sacred Scripture? To not trust Jesus and His command to listen to His Church?

I am going to post some excerpts from testimony of two guys who both went from Calvin to Catholicism. If you want to read their whole story, it’s very good.

*****


In particular, as a Protestant, I had always had vague notions that the earliest Christians were essentially the same as Protestants today in theology and style of worship. The Re-“formation� was, I thought, all about re-“forming� Christianity so that it got back to the original Christianity bequeathed to us by Christ, removing from it all the superstitious and silly doctrines and practice imposed upon it in the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church. I soon found that these vague notions I held about the early Church could not have been more erroneous.


As I read these detailed summaries of the beliefs of the Fathers of the Church, I was startled in particular to find in them all the essential elements of contemporary Catholicism in embryonic form. Moreover, this mustard seed of the Catholic Church did not become visible a couple hundred years after Christ, but was present in the earliest recorded Christian writings, some predating or contemporaneous with what we have good reason to believe was the time that the books of the Bible were still being written! In brief, the earliest Church was the Catholic Church.


The area of doctrine that struck me most forcefully was the insistence of the early Fathers (particularly St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp, and even into the period of the apologists Tertullian and St. Irenaeus) on obedience in matters of faith and doctrine to the bishops and the centrality of Tradition (faithfully transmitted to us by the bishops) in the codification of Christian doctrine. Tertullian and Irenaeus were particularly forceful to me in showing that sola Scriptura (as it is understood and firmly believed by central figures in the Protestant Reformation) was a notion foreign to early Christians. Once I saw this in the Fathers, I was shocked to find strong support of it in Scripture.

I was even surprised to find early insistence by some Fathers upon Peter’s primacy as the Prince of the Apostles and the necessary submission to his successor as the chief steward of the authentic Faith. From this source, I thought, all other Catholic doctrines necessarily derive. For even if we saw no other Catholic doctrine present in the early period, save the necessity of believing the faith transmitted by the Pope, that would be sufficient. It is obvious that the popes have preached the Catholic Faith, and thus the Faith the early Christians would have today is authentically found only in the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, we find evidence for a broad range of uniquely Catholic beliefs and practices in the early Church, not just the doctrines involving Tradition and submission to the hierarchy, but my area of interest in philosophy was (and is) epistemology — that is, a study of what we know and how we know it — and seeing this point strongly pushed me toward Catholicism.


Prior to the actual decision to convert, I wanted to make sure I was not being hasty. I began reviewing many of my old theological sources to see if I had forgotten about central objections to Catholicism that I had not been particularly interested in during my youth. For instance, I read a lot of Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion, trying to find some argument against the Catholic Church he was leaving. I also reviewed the works of Van Til, whose apologetic method was supposed to prove the Calvinist form of Christianity distinctly. Both left me very unimpressed. I turned to two Protestant apologetics websites that I had found useful in my youth and, looking over their arguments against Catholicism, I found the websites’ arguments to be easily responded to in light of the research I had done into Catholicism.


When one is convinced, as I was at this time, that one’s salvation is an assured thing as long as one “has faith,� then it is easy to rationalize one’s own particular sins as a necessary and uninteresting consequence of the human condition that should be generally avoided, but not with any urgency. It was not as though, I had thought, my salvation depended upon avoiding sin. It rested instead upon the genuineness of my faith and the sincerity with which I adhered to my Protestant faith. Though the false and dangerous part of this theology did not sink in while I was under my parents’ supervision, I became much more rebellious in college. I began to go to parties often. This seems like a benign part of college life to many, but this was a very bad and dangerous phase of my life that, as sin often does, made me very miserable and blinded me to the specific cause or nature of my suffering.


Yet Calvinism excused my sin as something God Himself did not see, since, so I believed, the righteousness of Christ had been imputed to me because of my genuine faith, covering over my sins so that He was blind to them, at least insofar as my salvation was concerned. My conscience naturally reproved the guilt of my actions, and yet I found in Reformation theology a rationalization of the guilt that prevented any serious and genuine reformation of my life.


https://chnetwork.org/story/from-calvin ... an-besong/










I was raised a Presbyterian, the Church that prides itself on Calvinist origins, but I didn’t care much about denominations. My Church practiced a pared-down, Bible-focused, born-again spirituality shared by most Evangelicals. I went to a Christian college and then a seminary where I found the same attitude. Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Charismatics worshiped and studied side-by-side, all committed to the Bible but at odds on how to interpret it. But our differences didn’t bother us. Disagreements over sacraments, Church structures, and authority were less important to us than a personal relationship with Christ and fighting the Catholic Church. This is how we understood our common debt to the Reformation.


Strangely, mastering Calvin didn’t lead me anywhere I expected. To begin with, I decided that I really didn’t like Calvin. I found him proud, judgmental and unyielding. But more importantly, I discovered that Calvin upset my Evangelical view of history. I had always assumed a perfect continuity between the Early Church, the Reformation and my Church. The more I studied Calvin, however, the more foreign he seemed, the less like Protestants today. This, in turn, caused me to question the whole Evangelical storyline: Early Church – Reformation – Evangelical Christianity, with one seamless thread running straight from one to the other. But what if Evangelicals really weren’t faithful to Calvin and the Reformation? The seamless thread breaks. And if it could break once, between the Reformation and today, why not sooner, between the Early Church and the Reformation? Was I really sure the thread had held even that far?


Calvin shocked me by rejecting key elements of my Evangelical tradition. Born-again spirituality, private interpretation of Scripture, a broad-minded approach to denominations – Calvin opposed them all. I discovered that his concerns were vastly different, more institutional, even more Catholic. Although he rejected the authority of Rome, there were things about the Catholic faith he never thought about leaving. He took for granted that the Church should have an interpretive authority, a sacramental liturgy and a single, unified faith.


These discoveries faced me with important questions. Why should Calvin treat these “Catholic things� with such seriousness? Was he right in thinking them so important? And if so, was he justified in leaving the Catholic Church? What did these discoveries teach me about Protestantism? How could my Church claim Calvin as a founder, and yet stray so far from his views? Was the whole Protestant way of doing theology doomed to confusion and inconsistency?

Calvin was a second-generation Reformer, twenty-six years younger than Martin Luther (1483-1546). This meant that by the time he encountered the Reformation, it had already split into factions. In Calvin’s native France, there was no royal support for Protestantism and no unified leadership. Lawyers, humanists, intellectuals, artisans and craftsman read Luther’s writings, as well as the Scriptures, and adapted whatever they liked.

His first request to the city council was to impose a common confession of faith (written by Calvin) and to force all citizens to affirm it.

Calvin’s most important contribution to Geneva was the establishment of the Consistory – a sort of ecclesiastical court- to judge the moral and theological purity of his parishioners. He also persuaded the council to enforce a set of “Ecclesiastical Ordinances� that defined the authority of the Church, stated the religious obligations of the laity, and imposed an official liturgy. Church attendance was mandatory. Contradicting the ministers was outlawed as blasphemy. Calvin’s Institutes would eventually be declared official doctrine.


Calvin’s lifelong goal was to gain the right to excommunicate “unworthy� Church members. The city council finally granted this power in 1555 when French immigration and local scandal tipped the electorate in his favor. Calvin wielded it frequently


In 1551, Bolsec, a physician and convert to Protestantism, entered Geneva and attended a lecture on theology. The topic was Calvin’s doctrine of predestination, the teaching that God predetermines the eternal fate of every soul. Bolsec, who believed firmly in “Scripture alone� and “faith alone,� did not like what he heard. He thought it made God into a tyrant. When he stood up to challenge Calvin’s views, he was arrested and imprisoned.

What makes Bolsec’s case interesting is that it quickly evolved into a referendum on Church authority and the interpretation of Scripture. Bolsec, just like most Evangelicals today, argued that he was a Christian, that he had the Holy Spirit and that, therefore, he had as much right as Calvin to interpret the Bible. He promised to recant if Calvin would only prove his doctrine from the Scriptures. But Calvin would have none of it. He ridiculed Bolsec as a trouble maker (Bolsec generated a fair amount of public sympathy), rejected his appeal to Scripture, and called on the council to be harsh. He wrote privately to a friend that he wished Bolsec were “rotting in a ditch.�2


While he rejected Rome’s claim to authority, he made striking claims for his own authority. He taught that the “Reformed� pastors were successors to the prophets and apostles, entrusted with the task of authoritative interpretation of the Scriptures


If Calvin’s ideas on Church authority were a surprise to me, his thoughts on the sacraments were shocking. Unlike Evangelicals, who treat the theology of the sacraments as one of the “non-essentials,� Calvin thought they were of the utmost importance.


Calvin understood baptism in much the same way. He never taught the Evangelical doctrine that one is “born again� through personal conversion. Instead, he associated regeneration with baptism and taught that to neglect baptism was to refuse salvation


Studying Calvin raised important questions about my Evangelical identity. How could I reject as unimportant issues that my own founder considered essential? I had blithely and confidently dismissed baptism, Eucharist, and the Church itself as “merely symbolic,� “purely spiritual� or, ultimately, unnecessary. In seminary, too, I found an environment where professors disagreed entirely over these issues and no one cared! With no final court of appeal, we had devolved into a “lowest common denominator� theology.



I realized instead that Calvin was part of the problem. He had insisted on the importance of unity and authority, but had rejected any rational or consistent basis for that authority. He knew that Scripture totallyalone, Scripture interpreted by each individual conscience, was a recipe for disaster. But his own claim to authority was perfectly arbitrary. Whenever he was challenged, he simply appealed to his own conscience, or to his subjective experience, but he denied that right to Bolsec and others. As a result, Calvin became proud and censorious, brutal with his enemies, and intolerant of dissent. In all my reading of Calvin, I don’t recall him ever apologizing for a mistake or admitting an error.


It eventually occurred to me that Calvin’s attitude contrasted sharply with what I had found in the greatest Catholic theologians. Many of them were saints, recognized for their heroic charity and humility. Furthermore, I knew from reading them, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis de Sales, that they denied any personal authority to define doctrine. They deferred willingly, even joyfully, to the authority of Pope and council. They could maintain the biblical ideal of doctrinal unity (1 Corinthians 1:10), without claiming to be the source of that unity.

These saints also challenged the stereotypes about Catholics that I had grown up with. Evangelicals frequently assert that they are the only ones to have “a personal relationship with Christ.� Catholics, with their rituals and institutions, are supposed to be alienated from Christ and Scripture. I found instead men and women who were single-minded in their devotion to Christ and inebriated with His grace.

In the end, I began to see that everything good about Evangelicalism was already present in the Catholic Church – the warmth and devotion of Evangelical spirituality, the love of Scripture and even, to some extent, the Evangelical tolerance for diversity. Catholicism has always tolerated schools of thought, various theologies and different liturgies. But unlike Evangelicalism, the Catholic Church has a logical and consistent way to distinguish the essential from the non-essential. The Church’s Magisterium, established by Christ (Matthew 16:18; Matthew 28:18-20), has provided that source of unity that Calvin sought to replace.

One of the most satisfying things about my discovery of the Catholic Church is that it fully satisfied my desire for historical rootedness.

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/0 ... -catholic/


What do you make of these two men’s personal faith journey? Do you see the problem they both found in accepting John Calvin or any other subsequent “Reformer�?

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Post #21

Post by brianbbs67 »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to brianbbs67]

quote]The early christians all worshipped at synagogue or temple in the case of gentiles is some areas, homes. The word church was literally assembly like in the OT. So, the early christians got it right.
Yes, they did. They formed a visible church, with a hierarchical structure, who they recognized as authoritative. Others took their matters to the Church. And when they did the Church had the final say.

They worshipped as the Jews and with the Jews, ie on the Sabbath and learning Moses' law.

But after the Jerusalem was destroyed and as apostles died off, the roman and grecian philosophies began to emerge dominate. Many very early church leaders just disappeared.

Well, not the next leader appointed after Peter, St. Linus, or the Pope appointed after him, St. Cletus, or the successor after Cletus, St. Clement I. I think you get my point.

Rome began to enforce this under the pain of death.

*******

No account of foolishness, misguided zeal, or cruelty by Catholics can undo the divine foundation of the Church.


What must be grasped is that the Church contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).


Protestants, who also tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretics. Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religion. In fact, Calvin not only banished from Geneva those who did not share his views, he permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for “heresy� (e.g., Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553). In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant. An even greater number were forced to flee to the Continent. We point this out to show that both sides understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religion from Christian society.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-inquisition


A house divided where everyone is partially wrong, at the least.

The Catholic Church is not divided in her teachings. She is the only Church who has a worldwide unified leader and message. She is in every continent in the world, teaching the same thing in every single country. Unlike, the Christian churches you are referring to – the “church of Christ� down the street may be drastically different than the “church of Christ� a block over. Which one is right? They do not have unified teaching, nor do they have the power and authority given to Christ’s established Church.

Their are a few that are united. Every cult is united. Are they correct? JWs are united. Are they correct? Mormon are united. Are they correct.

I don't interpret the scripture by my self, the Spirit of God guides me.
Again, is this Spirit of God speaking to you in an actual audible voice? If not, then how can you be sure your own persona feelings, preconceptions, and delusions aren’t clouding your understanding? And what happens when you are unclear? When you aren’t getting a strong signal from the Holy Spirit and you are confused on what the right answer is? What happens when a fellow truth seeking Christian you respect thinks Scripture is saying some different from what you think? Where do you go then?

I will just say, the sheep know the shepards voice. There is no mistaking it. When interpetations differ, you have to let scripture interpret scripture. Not man.

Scripture tells us to test all things. What are you testing your interpretation against?

Duet 13 for prophets and teachers. Then test scripture against itself. The message must be congruent from Alpha to Omega.

You have to realize Christ came not to the masses but only to the lost sheep of Israel. Not to make them christians but to give them a way back into covenant with God. Christ was making them Hebrew again.

And He established One, Holy, Catholic, Visible, and Authoritative Church to shepherd His flock. How soon we forget His words to Peter, “Feed my sheep�. Did Christ say after the original 12 die, my sheep will no longer need an earthly shepherd? Not at all. Scripture itself shows the Apostles passing on this appointment, less His sheep be scattered – which is exactly what happened when some severed themselves from His Church.

Christ said ravenous wolves would come. Teaching to people with itching ears to hear what they wish instead of truth according to Apostles. The disciples all taught according to Judaism without the traditions of man that prevented this.


There is no way around it, your and PinSeeker’s notion of church simply doesn’t cut it. It is unscriptural and illogical.[/quote]


My notion is right on point. Rome , finally, thru Constantine took over "Christianity" as they recognized it as the best way to control the masses. My Father in laws wife's brother was a bishop in OH in the 70s. She asked him how it was posible that now she could touch the communion wafer when before it was forbidden? His answer still shocks me today. "Because , Mary, its not about God. Its about control. If we can control you in small things, we can control you in large ones also."

As far as scripture goes, If the RCC followed scripture, they would follow christ and Moses. Sabbath worship and the law. The law was never about salvation. It is just our rules for this world from God. Christ preached repent and follow the law without treating man's tradtions as higher than God's law.

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Post #22

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to brianbbs67]
Quote:
But after the Jerusalem was destroyed and as apostles died off, the roman and grecian philosophies began to emerge dominate. Many very early church leaders just disappeared.
You never responded to my comments below to your above comments:


RightReason: Well, not the next leader appointed after Peter, St. Linus, or the Pope appointed after him, St. Cletus, or the successor after Cletus, St. Clement I. I think you get my point.




Quote:
A house divided where everyone is partially wrong, at the least.



The Catholic Church is not divided in her teachings. She is the only Church who has a worldwide unified leader and message. She is in every continent in the world, teaching the same thing in every single country. Unlike, the Christian churches you are referring to – the “church of Christ� down the street may be drastically different than the “church of Christ� a block over. Which one is right? They do not have unified teaching, nor do they have the power and authority given to Christ’s established Church.

Their are a few that are united. Every cult is united. Are they correct? JWs are united. Are they correct? Mormon are united. Are they correct.
No, they are not correct because they left Christ’s Church and started their own, founded by men – not Christ Himself. But your above comment implied Christ’s house is divided, but this is incorrect – at least if you are speaking about Christ’s actual house.



[uote]Quote:
I don't interpret the scripture by my self, the Spirit of God guides me.


Again, is this Spirit of God speaking to you in an actual audible voice? If not, then how can you be sure your own persona feelings, preconceptions, and delusions aren’t clouding your understanding? And what happens when you are unclear? When you aren’t getting a strong signal from the Holy Spirit and you are confused on what the right answer is? What happens when a fellow truth seeking Christian you respect thinks Scripture is saying some different from what you think? Where do you go then?

I will just say, the sheep know the shepards voice. There is no mistaking it. When interpetations differ, you have to let scripture interpret scripture. Not man.[/quote]

Do you have any idea how your response is not even an answer? Really? There is no mistaking the sheep knowing the Sheppard’s voice? This is why we have thousands of different Christian denominations all teaching and believing different things? And “when interpretations differ, you have to let Scripture interpret Scripture.� What does that mean? Scripture cannot interpret itself.

Scripture tells us to test all things. What are you testing your interpretation against?

Duet 13 for prophets and teachers. Then test scripture against itself. The message must be congruent from Alpha to Omega.
Are you aware your comment actually says nothing?


Quote:
You have to realize Christ came not to the masses but only to the lost sheep of Israel. Not to make them christians but to give them a way back into covenant with God. Christ was making them Hebrew again.



And He established One, Holy, Catholic, Visible, and Authoritative Church to shepherd His flock. How soon we forget His words to Peter, “Feed my sheep�. Did Christ say after the original 12 die, my sheep will no longer need an earthly shepherd? Not at all. Scripture itself shows the Apostles passing on this appointment, less His sheep be scattered – which is exactly what happened when some severed themselves from His Church.

Christ said ravenous wolves would come. Teaching to people with itching ears to hear what they wish instead of truth according to Apostles.
Indeed. And you don’t think that describes those who left Christ’s Church and decided to all teach different things than he original Church established by Jesus Christ taught?
There is no way around it, your and PinSeeker’s notion of church simply doesn’t cut it. It is unscriptural and illogical.



My notion is right on point. Rome , finally, thru Constantine took over "Christianity" as they recognized it as the best way to control the masses. [/quote]

Where do you get this stuff? No, really? It sounds like a whole lotta bad Protestant propaganda. Anytime someone says controlling the masses you know what follows is a bunch of bias political rhetoric.



My Father in laws wife's brother was a bishop in OH in the 70s. She asked him how it was posible that now she could touch the communion wafer when before it was forbidden? His answer still shocks me today. "Because , Mary, its not about God. Its about control. If we can control you in small things, we can control you in large ones also."
I don’t even know what to say to this. Perhaps he was trying to be funny. I am completely serious. If someone asked me why the Church now allows reception of Holy Communion to be received in the hand, I might jokingly say something like he did. It had to have been a joke because it makes no sense. How would allowing the congregation to now receive Holy Communion in the hand give the Church control? Especially since they are still permitted and even encouraged to receive on their tongue? Or there is the possibility your father in laws wife’s brother was an ignorant asshole who couldn’t be bothered to understand and communicate why the Church does/teaches what it does.

In 1969 the Church allowed reception of the Eucharist in the hand because of a desire for many Christians to do so because that is actually how it used to originally be done. The Church therefore allowed the individual to choose in what manner he/she would like to receive. It is a personal preference and the Church recognized such.

Either way, I would suggest your anti-Catholic bias has clouded your ability to be fair and you have chosen to believe some sinister reasoning given either by a joking or misguided Bishop.
As far as scripture goes, If the RCC followed scripture, they would follow christ and Moses.
Yeah, we do that.
Sabbath worship and the law.
Christ is the New Covenant.
The law was never about salvation.
Exactly. Which is why it is no longer about Mosaic Law – it is about God’s law.

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Post #23

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 22 by RightReason]

I did not respond to the succession of Peter because there is little evidence that Peter was ever in Rome. And doctrinally speaking wouldn't matter anyway. That myth started about 195ad. The supposed bones of Peter were "verified" by a friend of the Pope in a private investigation. They were found with many bones of animals and people also. There is no way to prove they Peter's.

How does it say nothing that scripture should be tested against scripture? Can we only trust scripture in certain places? Bear in mind also, that scripture is an English invention. The Greek says writings.

Every mainstream christian church teaches against Christ. Christ taught repent to Torah, God's law without the traditions of men that prevented God's law from being followed. Paul's words are twisted by the weak minded and unstable as Peter described in 2 Peter.

New covenant? The new is the old except it is written in our hearts so that no one has to wonder or look here or there or cross a sea. "And I will be their God and they will be my people."

Finally, what do you say God's law is? Its actually spelled out where everyone can read it and said to be perfect, last forever, applies to Israel and the sojourner FOR ALL their generations and when He comes back all will follow it. So, we follow the law till christ, then we don't follow, but when He comes back we follow it again? Does that even sound logical? Or do you have a different bible?

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Post #24

Post by PinSeeker »

I agree with you for the most part, brianbbs67, but the sacrificial system will never be reinstated, if that's your belief. Christ was God's Lamb of God and as such the final Sacrifice. In speaking of Jesus, the writer of Hebrews puts it this way:
  • "For it was fitting for us to have such a High Priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever." Hebrews 7:26-28
However, sacrifice itself is already reinstated in that we are to follow spiritually the example of Jesus by "offering ourselves as living sacrifices" (Romans 12:1). Paul, anticipating his own death, compared it to being “poured out as a drink offering,� that is, like the wine that was poured over the altar with every animal sacrifice:
  • "But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all." Philippians 2:17

    "For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come." 2 Timothy 4:6
In this way the old modes of worship should still inspire our consecration today.

Grace and peace to you both.

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Post #25

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 23 by brianbbs67]
I did not respond to the succession of Peter because there is little evidence that Peter was ever in Rome.
What does anything I said have to do with Peter being in Rome? It’s in Scripture that Jesus said, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I build my church.� “I give to you the keys to the kingdom� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�.
And doctrinally speaking wouldn't matter anyway.
I agree with that – whoever said it would?
That myth started about 195ad.
What myth? Quite frankly, it is irrelevant whether Peter was in Rome, though there actually is evidence that he was.
How does it say nothing that scripture should be tested against scripture?
I’m sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Can we only trust scripture in certain places?
Again, what are you talking about?
Bear in mind also, that scripture is an English invention. The Greek says writings.
Again, huh?
Every mainstream christian church teaches against Christ. Christ taught repent to Torah, God's law without the traditions of men that prevented God's law from being followed. Paul's words are twisted by the weak minded and unstable as Peter described in 2 Peter.
Huh? Now you aren’t even trying.

New covenant? The new is the old except it is written in our hearts so that no one has to wonder or look here or there or cross a sea.
Yeah, sure, let’s all just be one with the universe. If you build it, they will come . . . Gaaahh . . . such meaningless drivel that actually says nothing.

"And I will be their God and they will be my people."
Ok, why are you posting that? It is God’s message to His people. It still applies. What does that have to do with Jesus establishing His Church and telling us to listen to her?
Finally, what do you say God's law is? Its actually spelled out where everyone can read it and said to be perfect, last forever, applies to Israel and the sojourner FOR ALL their generations and when He comes back all will follow it. So, we follow the law till christ, then we don't follow,
Who said that? We follow the law and Christ was the fulfillment of the law. Christ established a New Covenant that did away with things like Mosaic Law, but not God’s Law. I think you may be a little confused.
but when He comes back we follow it again? Does that even sound logical? Or do you have a different bible?
Uuummmm . . . that’s not what anyone is saying. Your belief needs to pretend that is what Christians are saying/doing so that you can justify your theological views that we are somehow all still subject to Mosaic Law???? But Christians are not saying Jesus did away with God’s Law. I’m afraid you might not quite get Jesus, His teachings, or His Church.

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Post #26

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 24 by PinSeeker]
I agree with you for the most part, brianbbs67, but the sacrificial system will never be reinstated, if that's your belief.
I’m not sure what it is exactly you agree with brianbbs67 about, but you are correct in pointing out at least that flaw in his theological views.

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Post #27

Post by brianbbs67 »

PinSeeker wrote: I agree with you for the most part, brianbbs67, but the sacrificial system will never be reinstated, if that's your belief. Christ was God's Lamb of God and as such the final Sacrifice. In speaking of Jesus, the writer of Hebrews puts it this way:
  • "For it was fitting for us to have such a High Priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever." Hebrews 7:26-28
However, sacrifice itself is already reinstated in that we are to follow spiritually the example of Jesus by "offering ourselves as living sacrifices" (Romans 12:1). Paul, anticipating his own death, compared it to being “poured out as a drink offering,� that is, like the wine that was poured over the altar with every animal sacrifice:
  • "But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all." Philippians 2:17

    "For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come." 2 Timothy 4:6
In this way the old modes of worship should still inspire our consecration today.

Grace and peace to you both.
I am not sure if it will or won't be reinstated. The apostles, especially Paul are noted in Acts as continuing the sacrifices. Paul participated in a Nazarite vow ceremony which required sacrifice. Maybe a transitional period?

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Post #28

Post by brianbbs67 »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 23 by brianbbs67]
I did not respond to the succession of Peter because there is little evidence that Peter was ever in Rome.
What does anything I said have to do with Peter being in Rome? It’s in Scripture that Jesus said, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I build my church.� “I give to you the keys to the kingdom� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�.
And doctrinally speaking wouldn't matter anyway.
I agree with that – whoever said it would?
That myth started about 195ad.
What myth? Quite frankly, it is irrelevant whether Peter was in Rome, though there actually is evidence that he was.
How does it say nothing that scripture should be tested against scripture?
I’m sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Can we only trust scripture in certain places?
Again, what are you talking about?
Bear in mind also, that scripture is an English invention. The Greek says writings.
Again, huh?

You told me that testing scripture against itself means nothing. I simply asked how this could be?
Every mainstream christian church teaches against Christ. Christ taught repent to Torah, God's law without the traditions of men that prevented God's law from being followed. Paul's words are twisted by the weak minded and unstable as Peter described in 2 Peter.
Huh? Now you aren’t even trying.

You are deflecting without answering.

New covenant? The new is the old except it is written in our hearts so that no one has to wonder or look here or there or cross a sea.
Yeah, sure, let’s all just be one with the universe. If you build it, they will come . . . Gaaahh . . . such meaningless drivel that actually says nothing.

God's law and rules are drivel?

"And I will be their God and they will be my people."
Ok, why are you posting that? It is God’s message to His people. It still applies. What does that have to do with Jesus establishing His Church and telling us to listen to her?

Its Jer 31. It tells of end times when the gentiles come back and follow God and His law. It is relevant because the church christ was establishing was Hebrew. Christ never made a christian. He called believers to God. Show me where, in the 4 gospels, Jesus taught contrary to Moses? He didn't, nor did his apostles. Even Paul claimed only to teach Moses and the prophets.
Finally, what do you say God's law is? Its actually spelled out where everyone can read it and said to be perfect, last forever, applies to Israel and the sojourner FOR ALL their generations and when He comes back all will follow it. So, we follow the law till christ, then we don't follow,
Who said that? We follow the law and Christ was the fulfillment of the law. Christ established a New Covenant that did away with things like Mosaic Law, but not God’s Law. I think you may be a little confused.

Not confused at all. My God is not a god of confusion. Take your pick of these. They all say the same.
https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8
but when He comes back we follow it again? Does that even sound logical? Or do you have a different bible?
Uuummmm . . . that’s not what anyone is saying. Your belief needs to pretend that is what Christians are saying/doing so that you can justify your theological views that we are somehow all still subject to Mosaic Law???? But Christians are not saying Jesus did away with God’s Law. I’m afraid you might not quite get Jesus, His teachings, or His Church.
Christians are saying the law of God is voided. Something God never said. Even the living bible, one of the worst translations gets it.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=TLB

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Post #29

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 28 by brianbbs67]
Christians are saying the law of God is voided. Something God never said.
I don't think I've heard Christians say this. I think you misunderstand. Claiming Jesus established a New Covenant is not the same thing as saying Jesus voided the law of God. Is that what you think they are saying?

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Post #30

Post by PinSeeker »

brianbbs67 wrote: I am not sure if it will or won't be reinstated. The apostles, especially Paul are noted in Acts as continuing the sacrifices. Paul participated in a Nazarite vow ceremony which required sacrifice. Maybe a transitional period?
Well I'd say no, of course, based on the Scriptures cited above (some by Paul himself -- Philippians and 2 Timothy; some have speculated that he may have actually been the writer of Hebrews, too, but the style is much different, so we don't know). To where in Acts are you referring?

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