Such a small sacrifice...

[Willum]

Mithrae quoted this popular NT drama...

Seems to me he and his immediate followers answered quite clearly what kind of love leads to salvation:

Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,� he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?�

18 “Why do you call me good?�Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’�

20“Teacher,� he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.�

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,�he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.�


Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Assuming it is true, selling all your property and possessions doesn't seem like such a big sacrifice for the Kingdom of Heaven, does it? How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

[Zzyzx]

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How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

NONE have if they retain possession of electronic communication devices.

[Willum]

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How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

NONE have if they retain possession of electronic communication devices.

Nay, they could be too old to be valuable, or considered basic provisions necessary to spread the word.

[JJ50]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

The Kingdom of Heaven is not worth the smallest sum of money, it would be my idea of hell.

[1213]

…

… Then come, follow me.�…

…How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

Unfortunately Jesus is not on earth at the moment, so I don’t think that is possible right now.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

I've seen some arguments concerning these verses before. The starting point is often that believers can't be expected to give up their clothes, so selling everything can't mean selling everything. Usually, selling other things is rationalized away to the point that there is no need to sell anything.

It leaves one wondering why Jesus said such things given that he didn't mean them.


Tcg

[Mithrae]

How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

I did (briefly) when I was a believer. But I was a fairly young and didn't have much to give up; it's bound to be a much harder decision when you're weighing up cars and TVs against eternal life.

Out of interest, would you (or other non-believers here) do it, if you learned tomorrow that there was a let's say 30% probability that Jesus is Christ?

Unfortunately Jesus is not on earth at the moment, so I don’t think that is possible right now.

Hi 1213. I notice that you're a member of the 'Disciple of Jesus' usergroup. Did you know that he said "those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples" (Luke 14:33)?

[Mithrae]

As to the specific example about giving to the poor: one must also take into consideration the context on the 'sell your possessions and give to the poor.' Because we can know for a fact that this was not required of all His disciples: Lazarus, Martha and Mary had a house and belongings, as did other disciples.

Martha the hostess may well have been married to Simon the Pharisee, with Lazarus a penniless beggar who died and was sent back, and Mary a 'sinful woman' who anointed Jesus to Simon's disdain. Martha, we are told, was not very attentive to Jesus' words, while Mary and Lazarus apparently received them with joy.

Regardless, this argument that because some of Jesus' acquaintances did not obey his words - or more correctly, because the stories recorded mention only a point in their lives when they perhaps had not YET fully obeyed - that means that disobedience is appropriate.... Not exactly a convincing argument, in my opinion.

The words given to the rich young man were for him specifically, in response to his question. He is the one who pushed to know what he still lacked, even after Christ had already told him what he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Only then did Christ tell him,

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Christ showed the young man where he lacked simply by asking him to do the one thing that the young man was not going to be willing to do. Not everyone is going to be lacking in the exact same area; so not everyone is going to need that exact lesson.

Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You're switching to another version of the story, from the later gospel of 'Matthew.' It's always these same objections, every time this topic is raised and, forgive me for saying so, they are so superficial!
Matthew's Jesus also issued the command "Be ye therefore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect." So what is the argument being made here; that we DON'T want to be perfect, that Christians should just try to scrape by with a bare minimum commitment and no real obedience? Does that make sense?

[tam]

Peace to you,

As to the specific example about giving to the poor: one must also take into consideration the context on the 'sell your possessions and give to the poor.' Because we can know for a fact that this was not required of all His disciples: Lazarus, Martha and Mary had a house and belongings, as did other disciples.

Martha the hostess may well have been married to Simon the Pharisee, with Lazarus a penniless beggar who died and was sent back, and Mary a 'sinful woman' who anointed Jesus to Simon's disdain. Martha, we are told, was not very attentive to Jesus' words, while Mary and Lazarus apparently received them with joy.

Regardless, this argument that because some of Jesus' acquaintances did not obey his words - or more correctly, because the stories recorded mention only a point in their lives when they perhaps had not YET fully obeyed - that means that disobedience is appropriate.... Not exactly a convincing argument, in my opinion.

There is no disobedience here; just some misunderstanding I think. Christ also said to give to those who ask of you and to not turn away from someone who wants to borrow from you (Luke writes that as "lend to people without expecting any repayment").

(And Martha was the sister of Simon the Pharisee - aka - Lazarus; also the sister of Mary; and it was their home that Christ had been welcomed into)

The words given to the rich young man were for him specifically, in response to his question. He is the one who pushed to know what he still lacked, even after Christ had already told him what he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Only then did Christ tell him,

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Christ showed the young man where he lacked simply by asking him to do the one thing that the young man was not going to be willing to do. Not everyone is going to be lacking in the exact same area; so not everyone is going to need that exact lesson.

Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You're switching to another version of the story, from the later gospel of 'Matthew.' It's always these same objections, every time this topic is raised and, forgive me for saying so, they are so superficial!

Another version... or a more detailed version?

Matthew's Jesus also issued the command "Be ye therefore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect."

Indeed, but by loving one's enemies.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."


One may be a child of God by loving one's enemies and praying for those who persecute you; Christ says to be perfect as God is perfect by loving one's enemies.

So what is the argument being made here; that we DON'T want to be perfect, that Christians should just try to scrape by with a bare minimum commitment and no real obedience? Does that make sense?

Not at all. That is not an argument that I have presented.




Peace again to you Mithrae,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[SallyF]

…

… Then come, follow me.�…

…How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

Unfortunately Jesus is not on earth at the moment, so I don’t think that is possible right now.

Really …? That's not what I learned in Sunday school.



Jesus is watching over us, and he KNOWS if you haven't sold your clothes and bought a sword (or maybe an AK47 would do these days).