Why So Many Leave the Christian Faith

[Jagella]

Question for Debate: If Christianity makes credible claims and "transforms lives" for the better, then why do so many people leave the faith?

There's nothing new about people converting to Christianity only to revert to the thinking and practices that made up their lives prior to their conversions. In Matthew 13:1-9 Jesus preaches his "Parable of the Sower." This parable confused the disciples, and Jesus then explained it in Matthew 13:19-23 (NRSV):

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in the heart; this is what was sown on the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet such a person has no root, but endures only for a while, and when trouble or persecution arises on account of the word, that person immediately falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the lure of wealth choke the word, and it yields nothing. But as for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.

So to summarize, we are given three reasons why people convert to Christianity and then leave it:

• 1. They cannot understand Christian faith and are confused by it.
  2. Christian faith can cause trouble for the convert and can even be dangerous for the convert.
  3. Christian faith can become difficult or impossible to retain for practical reasons or financial reasons.

I think that these reasons do loom large in Christians abandoning the faith, and this abandonment of the faith has become known as "apostacy." Apostates are those Christians who "fall away" from Christianity.

I am an apostate. I left the Christian religion for the reasons listed above. However, the Parable of the Sower doesn't cover all the bases. I had other reasons for leaving the faith including seeing little if any truth in it. I'm an honest man who values his personal integrity, and I won't be a phony. I'm not going to to deliberately and knowingly spread falsehoods. As such, I could not remain a Christian.

[JJ50]

I lost my faith when I started to question it, and realised it lacked any credibility.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Question for Debate: If Christianity makes credible claims and "transforms lives" for the better, then why do so many people leave the faith?

I am not so sure where one would get the idea that, Christianity "transforms lives" for the better? In other words, Christianity is said to "transform lives" but where does it say, "for the better"? In fact, I would suggest there would be many folks in which this transformation would be for the worse, and it seems we are given this warning from Jesus himself.

Next, you seem to be making an argument from, "popularity"? In other words, you seem to think the exodus of Christians to other beliefs is somehow evidence of truth one way, or the other.

Moreover, I have given you examples of those who were at one time extremely opposed to Christianity, and they converted, and claim this conversion was based upon the facts, and evidence involved.

One of these many folks would have been, Rosaria Butterfield. When I brought her to your attention, you say, "she may have other reasons for her conversion". Well this may be true, but this is not what she reports. So then, why should we have to accept the reasons for your rejection, because I have all ideas there are other reasons for your rejection, but I do not cite these ideas I have concerning your rejection, because I have take your word for it.

So again, if we give you this benefit, then why do we not take Misses Butterfield at her word?

[Jagella]

I lost my faith when I started to question it, and realised it lacked any credibility.

Many Christians will say it's OK to ask questions about Christianity. Of course, you are expected to accept their answers if those answers seem credible to you or not.

If there was a main factor in my loss of faith, then that main factor was the Bible. I studied it diligently, and I eventually found errors in it. I realized that a perfect god cannot author a perfect Bible.

So we have a paradox: many people myself included get into Christianity by thinking about it, and then our thinking gets us out of Christianity. This paradox can be resolved by realizing that if errors in judgment are made, and errors in judgment will be made, then those errors should be corrected.

[ttruscott]

Question for Debate:[/color] If Christianity makes credible claims and "transforms lives" for the better, then why do so (the undefined) many people leave the faith?

If you are sincere about debating this question, should not you provide the statistics of numbers of people leaving the faith rather than your personal opinion that so many are?

I found

New Harvard Research Says U.S. Christianity Is Not Shrinking, But Growing Stronger

Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in ‘widespread decline’ so much so that conservative believers should suffer ‘growing anxiety’? Absolutely not.
...
New research published late last year by scholars at Harvard University and Indiana University Bloomington is just the latest to reveal the myth.

which google found in .77 seconds at https://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/ne ... -stronger/

[Jagella]

I am not so sure where one would get the idea that, Christianity "transforms lives" for the better? In other words, Christianity is said to "transform lives" but where does it say, "for the better"? In fact, I would suggest there would be many folks in which this transformation would be for the worse, and it seems we are given this warning from Jesus himself.

I think that "warning" was an appeal to those who have martyr complexes. Many people believe in "deferred pleasure" at the cost of present suffering. The idea in Christianity is that the more you suffer for the faith now, then the greater your goodies in the sky later on.

Next, you seem to be making an argument from, "popularity"? In other words, you seem to think the exodus of Christians to other beliefs is somehow evidence of truth one way, or the other.

I wouldn't say that people abandoning a movement is proof that the movement is phony, but the wise person should take heed of what she is seeing when people do get out of something. People often do leave that which they discover the hard way isn't what they had hoped for.

Moreover, I have given you examples of those who were at one time extremely opposed to Christianity, and they converted, and claim this conversion was based upon the facts, and evidence involved.

I've heard a lot of such conversion stories. There's nothing like converting a former skeptic and critic especially when that former skeptic and critic presumably has the credentials to judge wisely that the view converted to is credible. It makes for great PR.

One of these many folks would have been, Rosaria Butterfield. When I brought her to your attention, you say, "she may have other reasons for her conversion". Well this may be true, but this is not what she reports.

I don't know much about Ms. Butterfield. I'll need to check YouTube for something on her conversion to Christianity.

So then, why should we have to accept the reasons for your rejection, because I have all ideas there are other reasons for your rejection, but I do not cite these ideas I have concerning your rejection, because I have take your word for it.

You can take or leave the reasons I cite for my leaving Christianity. I don't ask anybody to merely take my word for it but encourage people to get educated and learn about Christianity in particular. Do some fact checking to see if what I'm saying is true.

So again, if we give you this benefit, then why do we not take Misses Butterfield at her word?

You can conclude whatever you wish about Ms. Butterfield and what she says about Christianity. Like I just posted, though, I recommend fact-checking her and me and everybody else.

[Jagella]

If you are sincere about debating this question, should not you provide the statistics of numbers of people leaving the faith rather than your personal opinion that so many are?

I just watched a YouTube video featuring Christian apologist Ray Comfort who claims that eighty to ninety percent of converts to Christianity "fall away" from the faith and revert to their former ways. Here's the video:

[youtube][/youtube]

[William]

[Replying to post 6]

The Kingdom of Heaven = The Metaphysical Universe
The Kingdom of Earth = The Physical Universe

Realworldjack : I am not so sure where one would get the idea that, Christianity "transforms lives" for the better? In other words, Christianity is said to "transform lives" but where does it say, "for the better"? In fact, I would suggest there would be many folks in which this transformation would be for the worse, and it seems we are given this warning from Jesus himself.

Jagella: I think that "warning" was an appeal to those who have martyr complexes.

William: In psychology a person who has a martyr complex, sometimes associated with the term "victim complex", desires the feeling of being a martyr for their own sake, seeking out suffering or persecution because it either feeds a psychological need or a desire to avoid responsibility.
Your argument appears to be judgment-based opinion, Jagella. As such it echos your a support for your bias, rather than anything factual.

Jagella: Many people believe in "deferred pleasure" at the cost of present suffering. The idea in Christianity is that the more you suffer for the faith now, then the greater your goodies in the sky later on.

William: The Metaphysical Universe aka The Kingdom of Heaven, is not 'in the sky'.
The idea of the formation of Christianity was to assist Eternal Beings in finding safe haven from the creations of evil manipulation in the hereafter by providing a belief system based in the idea of GODs goodness.
The formative years of that process required a willingness to die for such beliefs at the hands of evildoers because that was the way the world behaved in general.
Jesus placed that concern into his inner circle of followers because without them and their willingness to take that to the death, the news could not have had the success that it did.
That was the world they were dealing with. A cruel brutal beast with an appetite for bloodshed.
The effects of that were creating evil realms in The Kingdom of Heaven, to which many were captured indirectly by.
It is to those that Jesus focused his main concern on, in building a safe haven in Heaven.
The inner circle accepted the task assigned to them - not because they were all under the influence of a martyr complex, but because they were exposed to The Knowledge of The Secrets of The Kingdom of Heaven, and through that, they understood the importance of their own lives in regard to what they each could receive through The Kingdom of Earth, was negligible.

[Stelar_7]

Question for Debate:[/color] If Christianity makes credible claims and "transforms lives" for the better, then why do so (the undefined) many people leave the faith?

If you are sincere about debating this question, should not you provide the statistics of numbers of people leaving the faith rather than your personal opinion that so many are?

I found

New Harvard Research Says U.S. Christianity Is Not Shrinking, But Growing Stronger

Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in ‘widespread decline’ so much so that conservative believers should suffer ‘growing anxiety’? Absolutely not.
...
New research published late last year by scholars at Harvard University and Indiana University Bloomington is just the latest to reveal the myth.

which google found in .77 seconds at https://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/ne ... -stronger/

This study is from the end of 2018 and confirms drops in religion in the US in all demographics especially younger people.

https://religionnews.com/2018/12/10/rel ... llennials/

The study you cite acknowledges the fact, less and less people in the US are religious but says the cultural reasons may be more religious extremists driving out moderates. It's not a refutation of the decline of religion, just a question about why and a pivot to the question of the intensity of remaining believers.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/ne ... -stronger/

Follow the links to the sources, don't just accept the summaries offered by the sites.

[Stelar_7]

[Replying to post 3 by Realworldjack]

Can you provide a link or short version of the story you are referring to for those of us who missed that exchange?