144,000 Redeemed

[SallyF]

I understand that certain/most/nearly all Christians are quite convinced in their minds that Christianity holds the monopoly on gaining "Heaven" (which is some sort of parallel universe or the like these days) and they believe that non-Christians are going to roast in the fire Jesus mentioned (except for those Christians who have tossed that notion out of the gondola of belief along with all the other non-marketable stuff that is now just "figurative", of course).

But for certain Christians, there are mansions for only 144,000 Christians in The Metaphysical Universe (or whatever). Which means that if one has not chosen the RIGHT Christianity, one is likely to roast … according to certain Christians.

And these Christians quote "scripture" (who doesn't …?) WHO ARE THE 144,000? CAN I BE ONE OF THEM? HOW CAN I KNOW? "These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5.

What are the apologetics that wiggle us out of the particularist exclusivity of the limited places in "Heaven" belief: and do they have extrabiblical support …? Or should we genuinely tremble that not only non-Christians, but Christians who've been paying into the wrong collection plates, will also not gain this Transcendent Metaphysical Parallel Dimension Universe Heaven (or whatever) …?

[JJ50]

The JW dogma is crazy as well as abusive!

[Willum]

I always found the issue with this to be:

Who won the Garden of Eden conflict?
If God had to sacrifice his only begotten son so that a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of humanity could be saved, that means: 100% minus that fraction of a fraction of a fraction is going to Hell.

That is a pretty good definition of failure by the King of the Universe.
So who, logically is the superior in the relationship?

The one getting 99.9999% of souls, or God?

[1213]

...
But for certain Christians, there are mansions for only 144,000 Christians in The Metaphysical Universe (or whatever). Which means that if one has not chosen the RIGHT Christianity, one is likely to roast … according to certain Christians.
...

I don’t know about the mansions, but I know this:

I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel: Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, … …After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
Rev. 7:4-9

So, in the Bible the 144000 means living people on earth that are from the tribes of Israel at that moment. In addition to those there is the group that couldn’t be numbered. But it doesn’t speak of mansions. But on basis of that, more than 144000 will go to “heaven� or at least are not roasted like in some tv show.

[1213]

...
That is a pretty good definition of failure by the King of the Universe.
...

Failure depends on what was the goal. If the goal is that people are free, God has not failed.

[William]

[Replying to post 1]

SallyF: What are the apologetics that wiggle us out of the particularist exclusivity of the limited places in "Heaven" belief: and do they have extrabiblical support …? Or should we genuinely tremble that not only non-Christians, but Christians who've been paying into the wrong collection plates, will also not gain this Transcendent Metaphysical Parallel Dimension Universe Heaven (or whatever) …?

William: The Secrets of The Kingdom of Heaven remain locked from the hearts and minds of those who deliberately choose not to seek them out in all sincerity but would rather make arrogant proclamations based upon ignorance, in order to belittle that which they do not want to understand.
"Seek and ye shall find." Stand upon the sidelines berating the opposition, and ye shall find no thing to fall back on, but your opinions...which will turn to dust should the Transcendent Metaphysical Parallel Dimension Universe Heaven (or whatever) eventually reveal itself to you. Such opinions can only leave one unprepared...

[Willum]

[Replying to post 6 by William]

The Secrets of The Kingdom of Heaven remain locked from the hearts and minds of those who believe they know them with in all sincerity but would rather make arrogant proclamations based upon ignorance, in order to belittle that which they do not want to understand.
"Seek and ye shall find." Stand upon the sidelines berating the opposition, and ye shall find no thing to fall back on, but your opinions...which will turn to dust should the Transcendent Metaphysical Parallel Dimension Universe Heaven (or whatever) eventually reveal itself to you. Such opinions can only leave one unprepared...

[Willum]

...
That is a pretty good definition of failure by the King of the Universe.
...

Failure depends on what was the goal. If the goal is that people are free, God has not failed.

I don't think so.
Something with omniscience would have a good idea of the impacts of its endeavors, therefore freewill and a 99% failure rate must be part of its grotesque plan.

Perhaps, instead of a drive by, you can elaborate on what you think a creature such as God's goals are?

Freewill is clearly not a goal.

[bjs]

But for certain Christians, there are mansions for only 144,000 Christians in The Metaphysical Universe (or whatever). Which means that if one has not chosen the RIGHT Christianity, one is likely to roast … according to certain Christians.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only group I am aware of that call themselves Christians and believe that only 144,000 people will “The Metaphysical Universe� (they usually use the word “Heaven�). JW’s say that many people who are not in Heaven itself will be on a “New Earth.� JW’s do not say that those who are not in the 144,000 will “burn.�

So there is no group of “certain Christians� who teach what has been descried here.

[tam]

[Replying to post 1 by SallyF]

Peace to you,

1213 is correct that the 144 000 is only a portion (John HEARS that number and then he also hears where the 144 000 come from: 12 000 each from 12 tribes of Israel). But after John hears the number, he looks and sees a great crowd that no one can count. So the number of those whom John SEES wearing white robes and serving God in His temple includes the 144 000 (from Israel), but is greater than the 144 000.


The 144 000 are reserved from (fleshly) Israel; 12000 each from the 12 listed tribes (this is why the twelve tribes are mentioned in the first place). This "144 000" is the remnant of (fleshly) Israel, which God has reserved for Himself (and because of Abraham), guaranteeing 144 000 places to the physical descendants of Israel. But it is these 144 000 descendants of Israel - along with those people who make up the rest of the Great Crowd - who will reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom, for the thousand years. They are all Christian.



(There can certainly be more than 144 000 from (fleshly) Israel in the Great Crowd, since the Great Crowd is made up of people from all tribes and nations and tongues. But 144 000 are guaranteed and sealed from fleshly Israel.)




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy