Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Reply to topic
MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:09 am
Reply
The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbiblica

Like this post
Debate Format:

I. Affirmative 1st stand
II. Negative cross examination
III. Negative 1st stand
IV. Affirmative cross examination
V. Affirmative 2nd stand
VI. Negative cross examination
VII. Negative 2nd stand
VIII. Affirmative cross examination
IX. Affirmative 3rd stand
X. Negative cross examination
XI. Negative 3rd stand
XII. Affirmative cross examination
XIII. Affirmative conclusion
XIV. Negative conclusion

Note: cross examination is max of 10 questions

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:28 pm
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post
[Replying to post 1 by ResentfulBelly17]

Can we begin?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:31 pm
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post
ResentfulBelly17 wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by ResentfulBelly17]

Can we begin?


Please do.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:57 am
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post (1): meshak
[Replying to post 3 by Wootah]

Affirmative 1st stand:

First of all I wanted to give thanks to God for this opportunity, then to Wootah for lending me his attention in discussing this matter of faith. To begin with my stand, I'll cite the Shema from Deut 6:4 - this explicitly shows that God is indeed a one-persona God. This was later on echoed by the Lord Jesus Christ when asked what was the greates commandment (Mark 12:29). The shema is the foundation of Biblical Theism and there's no reason to deviate from this biblical truth, why? Simply because the apostles never taught a Triune God. In 1 Cor 8:6, Paul regarded the one true God the early christians believed in as the Father. Not the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost but the Father. Jesus Christ himself wanted us to believe that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). If the trinity is true does that mean that Jesus and Paul are lying? They could've said directly that the one true God is the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost but that's not the case. Another glaring truth is that the Son which is according to trinitarians the 2nd person of the trinity knows a God and even called him his Father and God (John 20:27). I'll end right here but I'll leave a question and hopefully will be answered as we progress with this discussion. If the trinity is true, and God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, who then is the Son which the Triune God had sent to earth in John 3:16.

God (Father, Son/Jesus, & Holy Ghost) sent a Son, who is the Son?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:20 am
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post
[Replying to post 4 by ResentfulBelly17]

Well it came as a surprise to finally have someone take me up on my challenge and I hardly know you or your views. I'm a bible believing, baptist creationist. I take the Bible literally as history where it is history and poetry where it is poetry. I find myself more and more looking at what the Bible text says and I think this is key. Too many debaters on this site argue from their ideology and find text to match it.

I hope we both come to this debate willing to be persuaded.

The shema: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

On Mark 12:29
I don't see why a man or God or angel or devil can't recite the shema. There is nothing special in this to your argument. We both say we believe the shema in this debate.


On John 17:3
I fear this will be common in the debate but we have to distinguish Jesus' role as fully man and fully God. Jesus is the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 and he plays the role of the good, obedient son unto death. As such, as a man, he worships God and shows us how to worship God. Jesus shows us what it means to love God with our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbour as ourselves.

I do think it a trifle disturbing that if Jesus is not God then what on God's green earth is he doing injecting himself into the Bible so passionately and determinedly. This will be one of my major points later in the debate but even here, Jesus (as not God in your view) is asking in John 17:3 that eternal life depends on knowing God and knowing a not God being called Jesus. That seems theologically disasterous if you believe in the Shema. Do I need to know about God to be saved or about a not God person (or creature) called Jesus?

To re-emphasise my point here. You claim the shema is a clear statement of one being called God and we both know God despises idols and fake gods and fake lords and yet on the most important theological issue, our salvation, where our souls are at stake and believing the shema determines where we spend eternity, Jesus who, you think is not God has the audacity to insert himself into what it means to gain eternal life? No wonder the Jews who were preserving God's word fought so hard to get rid of Jesus and protect the shema!


On 1 Cor 8:6
If we can both agree that this is clearly, letter for letter, talking about God alone then your use of 1 Cor 8:6 is in error because the Lord = God and the Lord = One. Paul in 1 Cor 8 clearly references the shema in the discussion of idols, and it compares the many gods and lords to the shema to the one God the Father and the one Lord Jesus Christ. I don't understand how you consider this verse as favouring your position when the shema is clearly using the word Lord about God and in the same passage Paul references Jesus as Lord. Paul is clearly intending for us to understand that the Lord Jesus is the Lord in the Shema.


On John 20:27
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Did you mean to cite that verse? If not let me know and you can update your post or tell me which one and I will address it.


You ask: God (Father, Son/Jesus, & Holy Ghost) sent a Son, who is the Son?

Jesus of course. I don't understand how you think that question represents a difficulty? Perhaps some background on your beliefs might help me to see why you thought that was a difficult question?

I will post my first Negative 1st stand in a few days.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:59 am
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post
[Replying to Wootah]

You should ask me questions, we're still in phase 2 (Negative Cross Examination)

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:41 am
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post
ResentfulBelly17 wrote:

[Replying to Wootah]

You should ask me questions, we're still in phase 2 (Negative Cross Examination)


I just want to know your theological position abd who is Jesus to you?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:50 pm
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post (1): meshak
[Replying to Wootah]

Jesus is the son of God, our Lord and Messiah.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:47 pm
Reply

Like this post
Negative 1st stand

Two Powers in Heaven

There is clearly in the Old Testament something going on that has been called the two powers in Heaven theory. This is the fact that Judaism recognised at least two beings in the Bible that were God, the invisible Father YHWH in Heaven and a visible Angel of the Lord YHWH on Earth.

Example 1
Genesis 19:24 - YHWH rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulfurous fire from YHWH out of heaven.

This example shows God raining fire from God out of heaven. Two Gods?

Example 2
Amos 4:11 I have wrought destruction among you, as when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; You have become like a brand plucked from burning. Yet you have not turned back to me - declares YHWH.

This example shows God talking about how he created destruction amongst them just like when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Example 3 Akedah
Gen 22:1-12
It is God testing Abraham in line 1 and God telling him in line 2 to sacrifice his only son but in line 11 it is the Angel of the Lord calling out from heaven and in line 12 the Angel of the Lord that says stop because you have not withheld your only son from him. This means that the Angel of the Lord is God.

All three examples are taken from this video by Dr Michael Heiser talking on this theory in the first 10 minutes but of course the whole video is worthwhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUkhWBKCuXc

This clearly demonstrates that since the Shema is true then it has to encompass ideas greater than God being only one person the Father.

There is also a very good video by Mike Winger on the Angel of the Lord https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryCyQ4N08Q0 that demonstrates that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus in the Old Testament. But I am not going to argue this at this stage because the purpose of this post is only to demonstrate clearly that our understanding of the shema and God needs to encompass more than one being. Actually example 3 is enough to demonstrate that the Angel of the Lord is God.

It all makes me wonder if the shema emphasises that the Lord our God is one because of the difficulties in reconciling these two powers in heaven and through the shema God wants to prevent polytheism from developing from the biblical text.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:49 pm
Reply
Re: The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbib

Like this post
ResentfulBelly17 wrote:

[Replying to Wootah]

Jesus is the son of God, our Lord and Messiah.


Human?
Angel?
Something else?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version