Can logic be applied to the almighty?

[Willum]

So far the best arguments for God are arguments from logic.

However, in order for this creature to exist and fulfill the expectations levied on it by the Bible or other references, it needs to be All-powerful, or omnipotent.

It also needs to be constrained by these books or promises it allegedly made.

The problem with this is twofold:
Human beings can't be relied upon to keep their word, we agree - and this might not even be from dishonesty, merely misunderstanding or bad expectations. We can be made enforce our promises under some circumstances, but how would you do that with God? Especially if it is the misunderstanding of a second century goat-herder?

You can't.

Now what if the mis-understanding is based on the fact that you can't possibly understand the creature you are dealing with?

So if the fallible humans of the Bible got their understanding of an incomprehensible creature wrong, you are out of luck.

Of course the second problem with using logical arguments for God is that something all-powerful can defy logic MUCH MORE EASILY than reality.

Logic simply does not apply to a creature that can bend reality, or even create it. So square circle, maximal beings, any of that are easily made real by an creature that can do anything. If it can change reality, it can certainly change a human's idiotic definitions and logic. To imagine otherwise, is folly.

So how can use use logic to demonstrate something that can defy it?

You can't.

So, no evidence of God, no proof of God, nothing can actually be ascribed to God, anything God might have said can not be affirmed, nor logic apply. It all adds up to zero.

How could a reasonable person believe in such a creature?

[Overcomer]

An interesting post, William. Here are just a few thoughts that sprang to my mind as I read through it:

You wrote:

We can be made enforce our promises under some circumstances, but how would you do that with God?

We don't need to force God to keep his promises. If he makes a promise, he keeps it. For example, God made promises to the nation of Israel. He kept them all.

"Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass" (Joshua 21:45).

But, of course, the greatest promise he made was to send a Saviour to reconcile humankind to him. There are many verses about that. Here are a few:

" . . . which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures" (Rom. 1:2)

"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised" (Heb. 10:36).

"Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12)

You wrote:

Now what if the mis-understanding is based on the fact that you can't possibly understand the creature you are dealing with?

It's true that we cannot understand God fully, but we can know things about him correctly if not exhaustively.

You wrote:

Logic simply does not apply to a creature that can bend reality, or even create it. So square circle, maximal beings, any of that are easily made real by an creature that can do anything. If it can change reality, it can certainly change a human's idiotic definitions and logic. To imagine otherwise, is folly.

God is a logical being and the creator of logic. As such, he cannot do the illogical such as make a circle square.

As for him changing reality, how are you defining that word? If it means the world or state of things as they actually exist, how are you suggesting that he change it? Either something exists or it doesn't. Are you saying he can remove things from existence?

God made us in his image which means that we, too, have the ability to think logically although that ability has been marred by sin.

You wrote:

So how can use use logic to demonstrate something that can defy it?

You can't.

So, no evidence of God, no proof of God, nothing can actually be ascribed to God, anything God might have said can not be affirmed, nor logic apply. It all adds up to zero.

But God doesn't defy logic and we can make logical arguments for his existence -- cosmological, teleological, axiological, etc.

See here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-logical.html


https://www.compellingtruth.org/is-God-logical.html


Are you using logic to make your argument? If so, why should we believe your logic? In what is it based?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 3 by Overcomer]

We don't need to force God to keep his promises. If he makes a promise, he keeps it. For example, God made promises to the nation of Israel. He kept them all.

Yes but your various sects fight over the meaning of what he has promised.
This means your God may have yet ANOTHER interpretation - the correct one, which will likely disappoint all others.
As to whether he makes the promises he keeps, you have no reason to believe that... do you have any reason to suggest this is true? Other than the claims of a book? A book written by fallible men?
How will that book enforce its will on God? Is your book more powerful than your God?

Let's take a hypothetical - couldn't your God change his mind, and then go back in time and alter your book?
Yes. If he wished to waste his time and power to do this - because honesty/logic is more important than reality - what could you do?
What if honesty to creatures who are less than ant-like is not important?

God is a logical being and the creator of logic. As such, he cannot do the illogical such as make a circle square.

That is like saying you built a house and so can't add more rooms.

As for him changing reality, how are you defining that word?

My definition? Who cares? If your God is All-powerful logic and definitions are less than cob-webs to it. Logic is a plaything.

But God doesn't defy logic and we can make logical arguments for his existence -- cosmological, teleological, axiological, etc.

This is what is being discussed. What if he does? Will you sue him?

RE: Your links - both are self-defeating.

In conclusion, you say logic can be applied to God because he is logical.
Even men can burst the confines of logic, but this all-powerful God of your is straight jacketed? No.

But that also being true, the assertion remains, you can't use logic to demonstrate anything about something that defies and exceeds logic.

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 3 by Overcomer]

God is a logical being and the creator of logic. As such, he cannot do the illogical such as make a circle square.

You have just told us that YOU know what God IS and what God has DONE.

You have also given God gender and number.

I suggest that you are writing of YOUR VERSION of God and have presumed to call it "God".

I suggest that - because you have given your version of God gender and number - you are referring to the biblical deity Yahweh/Jehovah, and not, for example, the Hindu version of God.

Please demonstrate that your version of God IS God with a capital G.

Please demonstrate that your version of God is a logical being (and perhaps that it IS a "being".)

Please demonstrate that your version of God created logic.

[Willum]

[Replying to SallyF]

Well, the site is called “Debating Christianity ,� as much as I hate to agree with them, it is assumed when you log on.
It is a he and so on

[1213]

...As such, he cannot do the illogical such as make a circle square.
...

I think you have good post, but it is possible for me to draw a circle square, therefore I believe God could also do that.

[Zzyzx]

.

...As such, he cannot do the illogical such as make a circle square.

I think you have good post, but it is possible for me to draw a circle square, therefore I believe God could also do that.

Kindly describe how you can draw a 'circle square'.

Circle is defined in geometry as: A two-dimensional geometric figure, a line, consisting of the set of all those points in a plane that are equally distant from a given point (center). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circle

Square is defined in geometry as: a regular quadrilateral, which means that it has four equal sides and four equal angles (90-degree angles) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square

Word play?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 7 by Zzyzx]

Well, I don't know how "1213" would draw a square circle, but for an omnipotent creature? for a being for whom reality warps at its whim? Who could change your very mind and perceptions, easily, who could change these definitions of yours easily, who could warp reality itself so squares are round, or contrary-wise? I see no problem with God presenting you with a square-circle you would have no logical, perceptual, measurable or definitionable objection to.

[Zzyzx]

.

Well, I don't know how "1213" would draw a square circle, but for an omnipotent creature? for a being for whom reality warps at its whim? Who could change your very mind and perceptions, easily, who could change these definitions of yours easily, who could warp reality itself so squares are round, or contrary-wise? I see no problem with God presenting you with a square-circle you would have no logical, perceptual, measurable or definitionable objection to.

Of course, in fantasy land anything is possible.

Gods are not needed to make up or distort definitions -- as can be seen regularly in these threads. 'The Bible doesn't mean what it says, it means what I want it to mean' or 'Let me re-translate those words for you'. Don't accept standard-use dictionary definitions, make up new ones. Typical word games. No gods required.

[SallyF]

[Replying to SallyF]

Well, the site is called “Debating Christianity ,� as much as I hate to agree with them, it is assumed when you log on.
It is a he and so on

Yeah … but for most Christians "God" is really more of a "they" … like the Hindu idea of God: just not as many.

"God" for most Christians is two men and a bird, yet they will use the singular male pronoun "he".

And what gender, may we ask, is the Holy Ghost bird …?

Nonetheless, Overcomer made claims as though they were established facts (in my view) and I'm asking for verification.

And if - when demonstrating the veracity of the claims - evidence of the existence of the biblical Jehovah was forthcoming ...