So far the best arguments for God are arguments from logic.
However, in order for this creature to exist and fulfill the expectations levied on it by the Bible or other references, it needs to be All-powerful, or omnipotent.
It also needs to be constrained by these books or promises it allegedly made.
The problem with this is twofold:
Human beings can't be relied upon to keep their word, we agree - and this might not even be from dishonesty, merely misunderstanding or bad expectations. We can be made enforce our promises under some circumstances, but how would you do that with God? Especially if it is the misunderstanding of a second century goat-herder?
You can't.
Now what if the mis-understanding is based on the fact that you can't possibly understand the creature you are dealing with?
So if the fallible humans of the Bible got their understanding of an incomprehensible creature wrong, you are out of luck.
Of course the second problem with using logical arguments for God is that something all-powerful can defy logic MUCH MORE EASILY than reality.
Logic simply does not apply to a creature that can bend reality, or even create it. So square circle, maximal beings, any of that are easily made real by an creature that can do anything. If it can change reality, it can certainly change a human's idiotic definitions and logic. To imagine otherwise, is folly.
So how can use use logic to demonstrate something that can defy it?
You can't.
So, no evidence of God, no proof of God, nothing can actually be ascribed to God, anything God might have said can not be affirmed, nor logic apply. It all adds up to zero.
How could a reasonable person believe in such a creature?
Can logic be applied to the almighty?
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- The Tanager
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Post #12
No amount of power could make a square circle possible. Those words mean specific concepts. Changing what the words mean is not meeting the challenge, but equivocating. Warping one's perceptions is also not meeting the challenge, for it was not that an omnipotent being could not make someone think a circle was square (or vice-versa).Willum wrote:Well, I don't know how "1213" would draw a square circle, but for an omnipotent creature? for a being for whom reality warps at its whim? Who could change your very mind and perceptions, easily, who could change these definitions of yours easily, who could warp reality itself so squares are round, or contrary-wise? I see no problem with God presenting you with a square-circle you would have no logical, perceptual, measurable or definitionable objection to.
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Post #13
Maybe I should not, because some might think I am God, if I do something that they think is impossible.Zzyzx wrote: Kindly describe how you can draw a 'circle square'.
Circle is defined in geometry as: A two-dimensional geometric figure, a line, consisting of the set of all those points in a plane that are equally distant from a given point (center). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circle
Square is defined in geometry as: a regular quadrilateral, which means that it has four equal sides and four equal angles (90-degree angles) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square
Square circle can be drawn by this way:
1 Draw half circle from point 0,0,0 (x,y,z) to point 0,10,0 through point 5,5,0.
2. Continue with straight line to point 0,10,10.
3. Continue with half circle to point 0,0,10 through point -5,5,10.
4. Continue with straight line to point 0,0,0.
Result is a square circle. If you look at it in direction z, you see a circle and if you look at it in direction x, you see a square.
- Willum
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Post #14
[Replying to The Tanager]
Well now that you’ve been shown wrong and this silliness is over, perhaps we can now agree an omnipotent creature can defy logic?
And more importantly, get on with the topic?
Well now that you’ve been shown wrong and this silliness is over, perhaps we can now agree an omnipotent creature can defy logic?
And more importantly, get on with the topic?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
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Post #15
.
A circle and a square do NOT have a Z axis / direction.
They are TWO dimensional geometric figures – X and Y axis / directions only
Thank you for providing a religionist perspective (pun intended) on these matters.
Irrational fear1213 wrote:Maybe I should not, because some might think I am God, if I do something that they think is impossible.Zzyzx wrote: Kindly describe how you can draw a 'circle square'.
Circle is defined in geometry as: A two-dimensional geometric figure, a line, consisting of the set of all those points in a plane that are equally distant from a given point (center). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circle
Square is defined in geometry as: a regular quadrilateral, which means that it has four equal sides and four equal angles (90-degree angles) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square
Major blunder.1213 wrote: Square circle can be drawn by this way:
1 Draw half circle from point 0,0,0 (x,y,z) to point 0,10,0 through point 5,5,0.
2. Continue with straight line to point 0,10,10.
3. Continue with half circle to point 0,0,10 through point -5,5,10.
4. Continue with straight line to point 0,0,0.
Result is a square circle. If you look at it in direction z, you see a circle and if you look at it in direction x, you see a square.
A circle and a square do NOT have a Z axis / direction.
They are TWO dimensional geometric figures – X and Y axis / directions only
Thank you for providing a religionist perspective (pun intended) on these matters.
.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Post #16
[Replying to post 15 by Zzyzx]
The point is moot.
An all-powerful creature could distort your brain so that the logic you applied would have you believe in square circles.
How about a cylinder. Looked at from the side it is square. The point is it is easy for us to come up with many square circles, it can be done by adding dimensions, warping dimensions, can God warp length and width in a relatively simple function, converting line to circle? heck I can do that...
So can we get back to the topic?
Can logic be applied to a creature who can distort reality?
If reality can be distorted, how much easier, logic, and if so... what is the good of the logical proofs of an omnipotent creatures existence.
I say they are useless... and for those reasons.
The point is moot.
An all-powerful creature could distort your brain so that the logic you applied would have you believe in square circles.
How about a cylinder. Looked at from the side it is square. The point is it is easy for us to come up with many square circles, it can be done by adding dimensions, warping dimensions, can God warp length and width in a relatively simple function, converting line to circle? heck I can do that...
So can we get back to the topic?
Can logic be applied to a creature who can distort reality?
If reality can be distorted, how much easier, logic, and if so... what is the good of the logical proofs of an omnipotent creatures existence.
I say they are useless... and for those reasons.
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Post #17
.
It might be accurately observed that a cylinder viewed from one position may appear to be a circle. However, the observation does NOT make a cylinder into a circle. It is still a cylinder.
In imagination anything is ‘possible’ – in imagination and fantasy
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/reality
Perhaps an ‘all-powerful creature’ has warped brains to make them unable to use language, definitions, geometry, and reasoning to understand the difference between two dimensional geometric form and three dimensional objects – in the real world.Willum wrote: The point is moot.
An all-powerful creature could distort your brain so that the logic you applied would have you believe in square circles.
A cylinder is a three dimensional object. A circle is two dimensional. A square is two dimensional.Willum wrote: How about a cylinder.
Correction: Looked at from the side, a cylinder is a cylinder. Looked at from top view a cylinder a cylinderWillum wrote: Looked at from the side it is square.
It might be accurately observed that a cylinder viewed from one position may appear to be a circle. However, the observation does NOT make a cylinder into a circle. It is still a cylinder.
Adding dimensions to a circle violates the definition of circle by making it a three dimensional object.Willum wrote: The point is it is easy for us to come up with many square circles, it can be done by adding dimensions, warping dimensions,
I do not pretend to know what proposed ‘gods’ can do. Do you know about such things?Willum wrote: can God warp length and width in a relatively simple function, converting line to circle? heck I can do that…
In imagination anything is ‘possible’ – in imagination and fantasy
There are evidently still people who cannot distinguish between a circle and a cylinder – and who continue to voice their misunderstanding.Willum wrote: So can we get back to the topic?
Has it been demonstrated that a supernatural creature can distort reality? Or is that conjecture and opinion?Willum wrote: Can logic be applied to a creature who can distort reality?
Has it been demonstrated that reality can be distorted? This is not asking about a perception of reality, but about reality (the real world). Reality defined: The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.Willum wrote: If reality can be distorted,
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/reality
Perceptions are often distorted – such as perceiving a cylinder to be a square or a circle. Any ‘logic’ based on a distorted perception becomes itself distorted.Willum wrote: how much easier, logic,
I have encountered no logical proofs of existence of omnipotent creatures. However, I have encountered attempts to use logic in arguments for such existence.Willum wrote: and if so... what is the good of the logical proofs of an omnipotent creatures existence.
I do not disagree with that statement.Willum wrote: I say they are useless... and for those reasons.
.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Post #18
[Replying to post 17 by Zzyzx]
As to a cylinder being a cylinder, the argument is self defeating. Is it impossible, with powers ascribed to God, that he could prevent you from perceiving all three dimensions of a cylinder, or, create another dimension you can't see transforming a circle to square?
There is just so many ways of squaring you circle that it is pointless talking about. Bending space-time. Bending space-time can easily and intuitively give triangles > 180 degrees. As can introducing dimensions. Surely we have beat this horse to death, and can get on with the topic?
It is an assumption of the topic if God is as billed in Christianity. The topic is constrained to that and those "ifs." If you don't want to play along, create you own topic.Has it been demonstrated that a supernatural creature can distort reality? Or is that conjecture and opinion?
As to a cylinder being a cylinder, the argument is self defeating. Is it impossible, with powers ascribed to God, that he could prevent you from perceiving all three dimensions of a cylinder, or, create another dimension you can't see transforming a circle to square?
There is just so many ways of squaring you circle that it is pointless talking about. Bending space-time. Bending space-time can easily and intuitively give triangles > 180 degrees. As can introducing dimensions. Surely we have beat this horse to death, and can get on with the topic?
Post #19
Through the brainwashing of religion is how … in my experience.How could a reasonable person believe in such a creature?
Christian people I know who work in science-based professions appear to have what I call a "Jesus switch" in their brains. They walk into a church, or hear a trigger phrase like "He is risen", and reasonableness flutters off Heavenwards and the ill-defined, defier of logic and reality and the laws of physics, with the suitably vague and general moniker of "God" becomes - for a time at least - "reality".
I suggest that if a reasonable person remains reasonable at all times, they will NOT believe in any version of "God".
For me, it takes the brainwashing of religion to turn reasonable people into believers.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
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Post #20
Yes, in the description I gave, circle and square are two dimensional, if you look from right direction, you see either square or circle. If you would not look two dimensionally, you would see something else.Tcg wrote: …They are TWO dimensional geometric figures[/b] – X and Y axis / directions only…