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[SallyF]

If "dead" quite simply means excommunicated, and the gospel writers are writing of genuine historical events in a figurative way, what are the implications of Jesus raising himself from the dead …?

[Zzyzx]

.

The Jesus character was a failed messiah.

He started the most widespread religious movement the world has ever seen.

Jesus was a Jew (according to Bible tales). Did he actually start a new religion?

Would it be more accurate to say that evidently Paul/Saul and cohorts started a new religion after his death that competed with Judaism – and used Jesus as its icon?

You and I have different definitions of failure.

Messiah is a Jewish concept. Does Judaism accept Jesus as a messiah? Or, did he fail to gain acceptance as the Jewish messiah?

[bjs]

Jesus was a Jew (according to Bible tales). Did he actually start a new religion?

Yes, Christianity is separate religion from Judaism.

Would it be more accurate to say that evidently Paul/Saul and cohorts started a new religion after his death that competed with Judaism – and used Jesus as its icon?

No, all available historical evidence contradicts that hypothesis and there is no historical evidence to support it.

Messiah is a Jewish concept. Does Judaism accept Jesus as a messiah? Or, did he fail to gain acceptance as the Jewish messiah?

The vast majority of Jesus’ early converts were Jewish. He early Gentile converts recognized his Jewish roots. He gained considerable, though far from universal, acceptance as the Jewish Messiah in the first century. He disciples have spread into the largest religious movement in the world, and that movement continues to recognize him as the fulfillment of Jewish Messianic prophesies.

[SallyF]

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Worth very, very careful consideration ….

When considering the total absence of verifiable evidence for a literal "Resurrection" ...

And the use of sectarian jargon in the Christian-Jewish propaganda.

[SallyF]

What specifically in the context of the Gospels makes you think that the writers meant “dead� as quite simply excommunicated?

Please refer to post 13.

I overlooked that very clear figurative use of "dead" in the Christian-Jewish propaganda.

Given the total absence of evidence for a literally dead Jesus bringing himself back to life, it is MORE THAN REASONABLE to offer the hypothesis that the possibly fictional Jesus character was also written of as being figuratively "dead".

It's a very simple, magic-free answer to am evidence-free, improbable without magic, article of faith.

And it's also worth noting that when the writers write of their character being possibly just tied to a stake for a few hours, they do not say that he actually died … he "gave up the ghost" … which we may suspect is intended to convey more than one meaning.

The whole Jesus business is very shady.

Which is why I say that it has been a fraud from the start.

[Zzyzx]

.

Jesus was a Jew (according to Bible tales). Did he actually start a new religion?

Yes, Christianity is separate religion from Judaism.

Did Jesus himself, personally start a separate religion? Evidence?

Paul/Saul (a prime mover in development of Christianity) did not know Jesus nor witness his words or actions. He claimed to have had a ‘vision’ (or hallucination, or delusion, or whatever it was) and to have ‘met’ Jesus and had a tour of ‘heaven’.

Would it be more accurate to say that evidently Paul/Saul and cohorts started a new religion after his death that competed with Judaism – and used Jesus as its icon?

No, all available historical evidence contradicts that hypothesis and there is no historical evidence to support it.

According to the tales, there was no separate religion when Jesus died.

When did Christianity become a separate religion from Judaism? Who promoted and popularized the new religion?

Messiah is a Jewish concept. Does Judaism accept Jesus as a messiah? Or, did he fail to gain acceptance as the Jewish messiah?

The vast majority of Jesus’ early converts were Jewish. He early Gentile converts recognized his Jewish roots. He gained considerable, though far from universal, acceptance as the Jewish Messiah in the first century. He disciples have spread into the largest religious movement in the world, and that movement continues to recognize him as the fulfillment of Jewish Messianic prophesies.

Kindly address openly and honestly the sentences in red above.


The straight answer, as I suspect you and readers realize, is that Judaism does NOT accept Jesus as the messiah their scriptures describe.

The upstart religion, later called Christianity, declared that Jesus WAS the Jewish messiah (and the upstarts knew better that Jews who was or was not the Jewish messiah).

[1213]

...what are the implications of Jesus raising himself from the dead …?

It would mean Bible is wrong, because it tells God raised him (Heb. 13:20).

[SallyF]

...what are the implications of Jesus raising himself from the dead …?

It would mean Bible is wrong, because it tells God raised him (Heb. 13:20).

Thank you for your direct response to the OP.

We have established that the Christian-Jewish writings are propaganda.

We have established that no one has demonstrated that the Christian-Jewish writing emanated in any way from "God".

We have established that the writers of the Christian-Jewish propaganda use the word "dead" figuratively.

The propaganda is only "wrong" in the case of "dead" if one takes the propaganda literally.

I suggest that the propagandists quite deliberately wrote their literature so that it COULD mean different things to different people.

[SallyF]

We have established that Christian-Jewish propagandists used the word "dead" figuratively.

When Jesus raised people from the figurative "dead, we may understand that he took it upon himself to reprieve their excommunication - or something along those lines.

We may then speculate that when he raised himself from the "dead", he lifted his own excommunication following his failure as a "Messiah" by forming his own breakaway sect, with the followers who still stood with him.

It seems to me a very simple, straightforward, magic-free explanation.

[SallyF]

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Worth very, very careful consideration ….

When considering the total absence of verifiable evidence for a literal "Resurrection" ...

And the use of sectarian jargon in the Christian-Jewish propaganda.

I thought I would repost this in case Christian members missed it the first time and wished to refute it with evidence that the Jesus character was non-fictional and the "Resurrection" was non-figurative.

It's vital to the remnant of Christianity that still remains as "Christianity".

[SallyF]

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Worth very, very careful consideration ….

When considering the total absence of verifiable evidence for a literal "Resurrection" ...

And the use of sectarian jargon in the Christian-Jewish propaganda.

I thought I would repost this in case Christian members missed it the first time and wished to refute it with evidence that the Jesus character was non-fictional and the "Resurrection" was non-figurative.

It's vital to the remnant of Christianity that still remains as "Christianity".

I've given this one another posting to point out that not a soul has come to the defence of the last pillar of traditional Christianity.

I contend that the Christianities have been a fraud from the beginning.